again, this is not only illogical. It is damning to the love character of God.
They don;t believe, because they do not want to believe.
Predestination is misunderstood...
- Thread starter Genez
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
They don;t believe, because they do not want to believe.
Abraham was saved the moment he believed.
The HS is given as a result of salvation after Pentecost.
But everyone saved before pentecost was just as saved. its all based on the cross.
why do you want to add to the grace of God and the cross?
They are condemned ALREADY,
It is in the perfect tense. it is a completed action. Its not something they fell back into.
Jesus said he never knew you. He did not say I knew you for awhile but you walked away and I stopped knowing you
Try reading a whole sentence at a time.
John 3:18 "He that is believing (pisteuOn: present active participle) on [Christ] is not condemned (krinetai: present passive indicative);" - just as I said.
"but he that is not believing (mE pisteuOn: present active participle has been condemned (krinetai: perfect passive indicative) already," - just I I said. And why has he been condemned already?
"because He has not believed (pepisteuken: perfect active indicative, A COMPETED ACTION WHOSE EFFECT IS CONTINUING INTO THE PRESENT) in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." - just as I said. The only sin that condemns is not believing and continuing to believe in Christ Jesus.
The only reason for condemnation given here is refusal to believe in Jesus.
Abraham was justified by faith. He was not saved from mortality when he believed. Salvation and atonement/justification are not the same thing in the Bible. That is why it is e=wise not to conflate them and then build doctrines on the conflation.
The ones who have listened to the father.
Or theese ones
Ezekiel 18:27
King James Version
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
From R.C. Sproul:
How were the people in the Old Testament redeemed? How were they saved? Did Abraham go to heaven? Was Abraham a believer? Was he redeemed? I say, “Yes, of course he was. The New Testament labors that point.” They say, “Well, how could the people in the Old Testament be redeemed when Christ hadn’t come yet? There was no cross. There was no atonement. How could they possibly be redeemed when the Bible tells us that the blood of bulls and goats, all of the trappings of the Old Testament sacrificial system, could not in and of themselves save?” So, how were they saved, if they were saved? Well, Paul, in his epistle to the Romans, again, uses Abraham as an example of people in the Old Testament who were saved, not by obeying the works of the law, not through the rites and the rituals of the sacrifices of the liturgy of Israel, but Abraham was justified by faith. And my students look at me, and they say, “How could he be justified by faith when he hadn’t even heard about Jesus? What was the basis of Abraham’s salvation?” Well, the basis of Abraham’s salvation was the work of Jesus Christ. Abraham was saved exactly the same way you are saved, with one significant difference. Abraham’s faith was in a promise that was not yet fulfilled. Our faith is in the promise that has been fulfilled. Abraham and the Old Testament saints looked ahead into the future for their awaited Messiah, their awaited Redeemer. We look backwards to the past to the One who has come.
I referenced R.C. Sproul because he explained it pretty well, much better than I would have.
Matthew 18:10
King James Version
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Just for you Charly the king James version your favourite,
What this is saying is all children are given a guardian angel at birth for protection as they grow.
This is all people being worthy of Gods grace
When David prayed in Psalm 51:10, "create in me a clean heart, and renew a right spirit within me" this displayed three things: his acknowledgment that he, his core being, was a sinner; his repentance, in turning to God, he displayed faith in God's ability to resurrect a new spirit with in him. Only a cleansed heart can decide (literally 'to cut off') so clean does not necessarily denote sinless because at this point, the cleansing enables the individual to "decide" between the choices of cutting off oneself for God or to cut off God for oneself (this is by grace); and three, he displayed his decision for God asking for a right spirit (this is through faith).
They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin
The reason we believe is because God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Rom 8:28-30 To ensure that his people would be conformed to the image of Christ, God predestinated each one to that conformity to his Son.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
R. C. Sproul conflates justification, atonement and salvation. Atonement and justification are stages of salvation. Atonement for the sins of the whole world was completed at the cross. Justification comes when we trust in Christ. Salvation will be completed at the resurrection.From R.C. Sproul:
How were the people in the Old Testament redeemed? How were they saved? Did Abraham go to heaven? Was Abraham a believer? Was he redeemed? I say, “Yes, of course he was. The New Testament labors that point.” They say, “Well, how could the people in the Old Testament be redeemed when Christ hadn’t come yet? There was no cross. There was no atonement. How could they possibly be redeemed when the Bible tells us that the blood of bulls and goats, all of the trappings of the Old Testament sacrificial system, could not in and of themselves save?” So, how were they saved, if they were saved? Well, Paul, in his epistle to the Romans, again, uses Abraham as an example of people in the Old Testament who were saved, not by obeying the works of the law, not through the rites and the rituals of the sacrifices of the liturgy of Israel, but Abraham was justified by faith. And my students look at me, and they say, “How could he be justified by faith when he hadn’t even heard about Jesus? What was the basis of Abraham’s salvation?” Well, the basis of Abraham’s salvation was the work of Jesus Christ. Abraham was saved exactly the same way you are saved, with one significant difference. Abraham’s faith was in a promise that was not yet fulfilled. Our faith is in the promise that has been fulfilled. Abraham and the Old Testament saints looked ahead into the future for their awaited Messiah, their awaited Redeemer. We look backwards to the past to the One who has come.
I referenced R.C. Sproul because he explained it pretty well, much better than I would have.
Abraham was justified by his faith in God. He was not atoned for until the cross. He will not be fully saved until the resurrection.
The reason we believe is because God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Rom 8:28-30 To ensure that his people would be conformed to the image of Christ, God predestinated each one to that conformity to his Son.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
I don't think you read what he said. He basically said the same thing you did. You're a strange duck, Paul Thomson.
Why Did Jesus say this if no one is worthy of his grace
Luke 13:1-9
New King James Version
Repent or Perish
13 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had [a]mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”