Who is receiving the Spirit?

[Inquisitor]

Of course it would be nowhere in the NT. But the NT specifically tells us that three spiritual gifts will cease. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (1 Cor 13:8)

You are following a specific interpretation of the scripture.

Have another read of the paragraph below.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we know in part and prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with.

Are you suggesting that the gift of knowledge has passed?

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known.

Paul is talking about the return of Jesus Christ, face to face, knowing fully!

The paragraph states, "when the perfect comes", it does not say when the Bible is complete.

 

[wattie]

In Acts 19:1-6, Paul encounters disciples in Ephesus who were followers of John the Baptist and had not yet received the Holy Spirit. Paul’s question about whether they had received the Holy Spirit "since they believed" (v. 2) and his subsequent actions (baptizing them in the name of Jesus and laying hands on them, after which they received the Holy Spirit) highlight the distinction between initial belief and the reception of the Holy Spirit as a subsequent confirmation and empowerment for service.

The New Testament presents the reception of the Holy Spirit as both an individual and a corporate reality. Individually, receiving the Holy Spirit is tied to conversion and indwelling by the Spirit of Christ. Corporately, the reception of the Holy Spirit signifies empowerment for witness and ministry, as well as the presence of the Spirit in the midst of the believing community. The distinction between individual and corporate reception is crucial for understanding the multifaceted work of the Holy Spirit in both personal salvation and the life of the church.

Well the question is how these disciples who believed through grace.. could not have also been individually indwelt?

Going thru other scripture it is clear indwelling happens at belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. So the receiving of the Holy Spirit here must be corporate, as a group.

 

[tylerbones1313]

Well the question is how these disciples who believed through grace.. could not have also been individually indwelt?

Going thru other scripture it is clear indwelling happens at belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. So the receiving of the Holy Spirit here must be corporate, as a group.

The Holy Ghost can fall on an entire congregation but will always be individuals who are receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The gifts of the Spirit will always work through individuals for the edification of the entire Body of Christ.

 

[wattie]

The Holy Ghost can fall on an entire congregation but will always be individuals who are receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The gifts of the Spirit will always work through individuals for the edification of the entire Body of Christ.

Well.. usually baptism of the Holy Ghost is not associated with water baptism.. but Acts 19 is baptism by immersion in water..seeing its given by someone else.. THEN the Spirit is received.

A group of disciples, who believed through grace, who get baptised in the right name of Jesus, the right way.. and many assume they don't have the Holy Spirit indwelling their soul until after all this.

This is my issue with this.. believers.. baptised and not indwelled? That isn't anywhere else in the Bible.

But anyway.. I agree with you on the difference between individual indwelling and then the corporate role and empowerment role of the Holy Spirit. These are where the distinctions are needed.

 

[Burn1986]

The gift (singular) is the Holy Ghost from which spiritual gifts (plural) originate. This is confirmed from the scriptures included below. (Acts 2:2-4, 33; 8:14-19. 19:1-7)

Also, keep in mind what Paul asked those in Acts 19, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" Not, have you received a Holy Ghost gift. Another relevant aspect of this account is seen in verse 7. It makes clear that 12 men experienced receiving the Holy Ghost when Paul laid hands on them.

"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:2-4

Peter's explained what occurred:
"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:32-33


Acts 8:14-19
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost."

Acts 19:6-7
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve.

The disciples probably laid their hands on them individually maybe? Might’ve been hard to lay their hands on twelve guys all at once. Most people who receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit in a setting like this have the ministers lay hands on the individual person,

 

[Karlon]

only people who have become born again Christians receive the Holy Spirit. read John 3:5.

 

[Wansvic]

Well.. usually baptism of the Holy Ghost is not associated with water baptism.. but Acts 19 is baptism by immersion in water..seeing its given by someone else.. THEN the Spirit is received.

A group of disciples, who believed through grace, who get baptised in the right name of Jesus, the right way.. and many assume they don't have the Holy Spirit indwelling their soul until after all this.

This is my issue with this.. believers.. baptised and not indwelled? That isn't anywhere else in the Bible.

But anyway.. I agree with you on the difference between individual indwelling and then the corporate role and empowerment role of the Holy Spirit. These are where the distinctions are needed.

Actually there are many instances recorded in the Bible where believing did NOT automatically bring about the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost. Nor, did the experience occur simultaneously upon obedience to water baptism.

As shared previously, the Samaritan account is a prime example. The individuals believed the gospel message, and submitted to water baptism in the name of Jesus. They did not receive the Holy Ghost until days later. (Acts 8:12-17)

Also, Paul's question in Acts 19 proves the same point. If the Holy Ghost is received the moment a person believes why did he ask, "Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?" Paul's question reveals he understood people can believe the gospel message yet still not have the Holy Ghost dwelling in them. This truth is further witnessed in that very account. The guys were not indwelt by the Holy Ghost upon believing and being rebaptized. They actually received the Holy Ghost at the point Paul laid hands on them.

Consider as well the promise Peter revealed to believers on the Day of Pentecost. He told THEM to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus and they would receive the Holy Ghost. That promise was fulfilled that very day. (Acts 2:37-41) The promise is sure even if it does not happen on the same day as revealed in the Samaritan account. (Acts 8)

 

[Wansvic]

only people who have become born again Christians receive the Holy Spirit. read John 3:5.

People are NOT born again until after being indwelt by the Holy Ghost and being water baptized in the name of Jesus. Scripture reveals this truth. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

 

[Edify]

It is not speaking about our completion, but the completion of the Bible. Each one of those gifts is related to divine revelation, and that is connected to divine inspiration and the completion of the Bible. When the Bible was completed, those gifts ceased. This is confirmed by the Early Church Fathers. Indeed Revelation tells us that any addition to those prophecies would be unacceptable, And Revelation is the final book chronologically and sequentially.

Funny how you just "skip over" the part about knowledge passing away in those verses.
False doctrines usually 1. explain away plain written scripture as something else, & 2. when they can't explain special parts of it that confirm the true doctrine, they simply "skip over" it as if it didn't exist.
It looks like you have done both, so if it looks, walks, & sounds like a duck, it is a duck.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Funny how you just "skip over" the part about knowledge passing away in those verses.

No I don't. That pertains to supernatural knowledge given directly by God. Not ordinary knowledge which exists in the world.


For example, the Gospel writers were not actual eye-witnesses to many things they wrote down. But God gave them supernatural knowledge about all that is included in Scripture.

While Christ was on the cross, all the apostles were absent. Yet they wrote down precisely what happened (to the degree which God wanted to reveal). This was according to supernatural knowledge.

 

[Edify]

I did not say that "the Bible is all we needed". I said that the completion of the Bible meant that the spiritual gifts related to divine revelation (and inspiration) would end when the Bible was complete. While Paul did not include the spiritual gift of "apostles" in that, the apostles also ceased at that time. And these mean had received their writings through divine inspiration -- theopneustos -- which means "God-breathed".

Some prophecy about the church is over a thousand years old before it came to pass, yet NOT ONE NT writer said anything about the Gifts ending 2-300 years when God's word was "completed". NOTHING at all. Yet here we are discussing false doctrine that has NOTHING to back it up in the whole Bible.
"Let God be true, & every man a liar."
I would be very fearful to try & back something like that.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Some prophecy about the church is over a thousand years old before it came to pass, yet NOT ONE NT writer said anything about the Gifts ending 2-300 years when God's word was "completed".

Since I quoted the Scripture that said exactly that, your statement is false. And there is nothing about 2-300 years either. When the book of Revelation was completed (around 96 AD) those gifts ceased. But you can believe whatever you want to believe. And if you are trying to pick a fight, forget it. I have no interest in arguing about this matter.

 

[Edify]

No I don't. That pertains to supernatural knowledge given directly by God. Not ordinary knowledge which exists in the world.

For example, the Gospel writers were not actual eye-witnesses to many things they wrote down. But God gave them supernatural knowledge about all that is included in Scripture.

While Christ was on the cross, all the apostles were absent. Yet they wrote down precisely what happened (to the degree which God wanted to reveal). This was according to supernatural knowledge.

12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Tell me, do you know everything fully now? Does everyone fully know you now? How come you don't fully know everyone else?
Sad to say, but many don't believe in the Gifts & baptism in/of the Spirit simply because they would have to explain why the don't have it or why they aren't seeking for it.

 

[tylerbones1313]

As long as the Body of Christ is still here on earth, not taken up in the Rapture, the gifts of the spirit are needed as a sign to the unbeliever that every word of God is true, Including hard to believe ones like healing, casting out demons, raising the dead, prophesying, etc.. These are still available if God's people (including myself) would yield to Spirit in total faith. We are too busy with our lives and our stuff, than to focus on the hurting and dying and lost world needing Salvation.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Of course it would be nowhere in the NT. But the NT specifically tells us that three spiritual gifts will cease. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (1 Cor 13:8)

It also tells us WHEN they'll cease.

 

[Edify]

It also tells us WHEN they'll cease.

Yes, when we see Jesus face to face!

 

[Karlon]

People are NOT born again until after being indwelt by the Holy Ghost and being water baptized in the name of Jesus. Scripture reveals this truth. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

those 2 verses i have memorized! a person becomes a born again Christian & at that second, the Holy Spirit moves into your life & is with you forever.

 

[wattie]

Yes, when we see Jesus face to face!

Okay.. so 1 Corinthians 13.. is about something complete finishing and maturing what is partial. The 'perfect' in the biblical sense of the word most times refers to maturity.. lacking nothing rather than sinlessness.. unless the context is about God.

So that's one part of it.

The next thing is when Paul talks about 'face to face'.. seeing in a mirror dimly.. well.. another part of scripture describes seeing in the mirror the 'perfect law of liberty'.. which acts as a mirror to someone.. showing their true nature.. there fore they see 'face to face'-- there own nature.

(James 1:23) For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
(James 1:24) For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
(James 1:25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

So.. that is the next part.

The 3rd part is the fact of spiritual gifts.. especially tongues, prophecy and gift of knowledge being mentioned less and less when you put the NT letters to churches in their chronological order.

Finally.. 1 Corinthians 13 does not stand alone as the only proof text for cessation of the sign gifts. There are plenty of other scriptures in context to support tongues, prophecy and knowledge gifts passing away before the 2nd coming.

 

[wattie]

Actually there are many instances recorded in the Bible where believing did NOT automatically bring about the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost. Nor, did the experience occur simultaneously upon obedience to water baptism.

As shared previously, the Samaritan account is a prime example. The individuals believed the gospel message, and submitted to water baptism in the name of Jesus. They did not receive the Holy Ghost until days later. (Acts 8:12-17)

Also, Paul's question in Acts 19 proves the same point. If the Holy Ghost is received the moment a person believes why did he ask, "Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?" Paul's question reveals he understood people can believe the gospel message yet still not have the Holy Ghost dwelling in them. This truth is further witnessed in that very account. The guys were not indwelt by the Holy Ghost upon believing and being rebaptized. They actually received the Holy Ghost at the point Paul laid hands on them.

Consider as well the promise Peter revealed to believers on the Day of Pentecost. He told THEM to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus and they would receive the Holy Ghost. That promise was fulfilled that very day. (Acts 2:37-41) The promise is sure even if it does not happen on the same day as revealed in the Samaritan account. (Acts 8)

Yes, again corporate empowerment from the Holy Spirit as entire groups receive Him, rather than individual indwelling in question. I will agree to disagree.

 

[Edify]

Finally.. 1 Corinthians 13 does not stand alone as the only proof text for cessation of the sign gifts. There are plenty of other scriptures in context to support tongues, prophecy and knowledge gifts passing away before the 2nd coming.

Ok, what are they? It's commonplace to just post them. It might make your argument more ironclad.