Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[CS1]

why can't you answer the simple question below???

Did Christ come to make salvation possible or did He come to secure salvation for His people?

The word of God says He came to pay for the sins of the world. FYI, Adam was not a Jew or Hebrew

He was the first Human being of God who transgressed against God, and death entered the world.

Jesus conquered Death, hell, and the Grave. He did that not just for Jews.

We are His creation. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[CS1]

Sorry, CS1, I'm a little confused by the above post. Do those questions play into our discussion of what constitutes a Saviour, or
have you moved on to something new? If you'd like to move on, I would be interested to know if you still hold to your original
POV regarding the Saviour. I think it important to know because it would be difficult to discuss subsequent points that would be built upon that without first establishing a common foundation.

I'm sorry, too, trying to tie in the post-thread topic to our discussion.


"If Jesus died for all then must not all must become saved? Were it otherwise, how then could He wear the title of Saviour in that to become saved and the Saviour are inexorably bound together?"


I Believe scripture and the context of Saviour are not determined by those who will not be saved. Nor more than the denial of the Existence of God by an atheist means there is no God.



Romans chapter One tell us that all have the knowing of God and even the Eternal Godhead by the very things God created

Roman 1:18-20

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,


Salvation is offered to all by the one who can give it to all. The Title of "Saviour " is not diminished by those who will not be saved.
Because Man's intellect doesn't determine what God's work of Salvation did or did not do.

 

[rogerg]

I'm sorry, too, trying to tie in the post-thread topic to our discussion.

No problem was just wondering where we stood on the direction of the discussion.

Salvation is offered to all by the one who can give it to all. The Title of "Saviour " is not diminished by those who will not be saved.
Because Man's intellect doesn't determine what God's work of Salvation did or did not do.

Okay, while I understand your position, I obviously see it differently. So, because of the fundamental
difference in our points of view, it is difficult for me to see how we can bridge it. With that in mind, I don't think
it worth the effort from either of us to continue to beat a dead horse (so to speak) in trying to convince
the other. So, I suggest at least for now that we terminate, and should one of us in the future see it differently,
we can resume then.
Sorry we couldn't find a basis for a continuing discussion, but nevertheless, I enjoyed it - thanks.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

You've summed up the two opposing Church interpretations of the gospel very well. Those of us who believe in election and predestination, are absolutely 100% sure we are saved and nothing can snatch us out of Gods hand.

The other camp, relies on mans will to endure to the end and then finally receive salvation. This is not what my bible teaches or supports, because it's a man centered gospel where man is the master of his destiny rather than God

The other

I've been doing a bit of home work 😊 ok is this quite accurate by John Calvin




John Calvin is perhaps best known for his doctrine of predestination. He taught that God determined before all time who would be eternally saved and who would be condemned to hell. Christians, he said, should not question God's plan, but rather trust in God's good intentions for their personal life and destiny.

 

[CS1]

No problem was just wondering where we stood on the direction of the discussion.



Okay, while I understand your position, I obviously see it differently. So, because of the fundamental
difference in our points of view, it is difficult for me to see how we can bridge it. With that in mind, I don't think
it worth the effort from either of us to continue to beat a dead horse (so to speak) in trying to convince
the other. So, I suggest at least for now that we terminate, and should one of us in the future see it differently,
we can resume then.
Sorry we couldn't find a basis for a continuing discussion, but nevertheless, I enjoyed it - thanks.

I did, also. Thank you for the discussion. I am not sure I know fully your position or how it differs. I would love to know the contrast, not to suggest you are wrong because I think you are more correct than you think we differ.

 

[rogerg]

I did, also. Thank you for the discussion. I am not sure I know fully your position or how it differs. I would love to know the contrast, not to suggest you are wrong because I think you are more correct than you think we differ.

To summarize it, I do not believe that Christ offers salvation to everyone but gives it only to those whom He had chosen for it from before the foundation of the world - His elect. So for them, only because of Christ's offering, their sins must be forgiven, and they must become saved. IOW, Christ did it all on their behalf, it being a completely free gift to them: they contribute nothing and are only recipient/beneficiaries - this is what makes Christ alone the Saviour. To me that is the only way salvation through grace is possible - that grace must have election, otherwise, a work of some kind on the recipient's part would be required to become saved, making themselves not Christ, their saviour. I understand your position to be that salvation is offered to all but to become saved it is up to a person to first do something such as to produce belief in themselves in order to obtain it. That requirement - in having to do something (with the "do" being the operative word) to become saved to me makes it a work, yet the Bible is clear that no one can be saved by their works.
Sorry, guess that wasn't really a summary.
Hope it makes sense - if not, let me know and I'll try to clarify.

 

[MerSee]

To summarize it, I do not believe that Christ offers salvation to everyone but gives it only to those whom He had chosen for it from before the foundation of the world - His elect. So for them, only because of Christ's offering, their sins must be forgiven, and they must become saved. IOW, Christ did it all on their behalf, it being a completely free gift to them: they contribute nothing and are only recipient/beneficiaries - this is what makes Christ alone the Saviour. To me that is the only way salvation through grace is possible - that grace must have election, otherwise, a work of some kind on the recipient's part would be required to become saved, making themselves not Christ, their saviour. I understand your position to be that salvation is offered to all but to become saved it is up to a person to first do something such as to produce belief in themselves in order to obtain it. That requirement - in having to do something (with the "do" being the operative word) to become saved to me makes it a work, yet the Bible is clear that no one can be saved by their works.
Sorry, guess that wasn't really a summary.
Hope it makes sense - if not, let me know and I'll try to clarify.

Roman 4:4
Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.

 

[CS1]

To summarize it, I do not believe that Christ offers salvation to everyone but gives it only to those whom He had chosen for it from before the foundation of the world - His elect. So for them, only because of Christ's offering, their sins must be forgiven, and they must become saved. IOW, Christ did it all on their behalf, it being a completely free gift to them: they contribute nothing and are only recipient/beneficiaries - this is what makes Christ alone the Saviour. To me that is the only way salvation through grace is possible - that grace must have election, otherwise, a work of some kind on the recipient's part would be required to become saved, making themselves not Christ, their saviour. I understand your position to be that salvation is offered to all but to become saved it is up to a person to first do something such as to produce belief in themselves in order to obtain it. That requirement - in having to do something (with the "do" being the operative word) to become saved to me makes it a work, yet the Bible is clear that no one can be saved by their works.
Sorry, guess that wasn't really a summary.
Hope it makes sense - if not, let me know and I'll try to clarify.

Okay, thank you. I understand.

After reading this, I think I have a question: Is it possible to assume that Grace is offered to all and that it has to be the work of those who received it if they are not the elect? I don't see where Salvation is offered to all means, "If not elected", only some kind of work for salvation must be done.

I also think it is a presupposition. To say:
" I understand your position to be that salvation is offered to all but to become saved it is up to a person to first do something such as to produce belief in themselves in order to obtain it."

I never believed that a person worked for salvation, nor do I think that after the preaching of the Gospel, the Holy Spirit convicts the person who is able to see their need for Jesus. They had to be drawn to Christ, and that is done only by the work of the Holy Spirit, who is God. Once the ability to receive the gift freely is not of works, one can accept it, reject it, or neglect it.

Accepting a free gift is not a work It is just receiving it or not.

 

[MerSee]

Okay, thank you. I understand.

After reading this, I think I have a question: Is it possible to assume that Grace is offered to all and that it has to be the work of those who received it if they are not the elect? I don't see where Salvation is offered to all means, "If not elected", only some kind of work for salvation must be done.

I also think it is a presupposition. To say:
" I understand your position to be that salvation is offered to all but to become saved it is up to a person to first do something such as to produce belief in themselves in order to obtain it."

I never believed that a person worked for salvation, nor do I think that after the preaching of the Gospel, the Holy Spirit convicts the person who is able to see their need for Jesus. They had to be drawn to Christ, and that is done only by the work of the Holy Spirit, who is God. Once the ability to receive the gift freely is not of works, one can accept it, reject it, or neglect it.

Accepting a free gift is not a work It is just receiving it or not.

You have to work to accept the gift.

 

[CS1]

You have to work to accept the gift.

No, you do not. That is a false narrative.

 

[MerSee]

No, you do not. That is a false narrative.

It take effort/work for us to accept the gift; Jesus doesn't accept our gift for us.

 

[CS1]

It take effort/work for us to accept the gift; Jesus doesn't accept our gift for us.

That is an opinion. There is nothing in the word of god that says accepting a gift works for salvation. FYI, the word Gift stands alone; It can't be earned even if you accept it.

 

[CS1]

It take effort/work for us to accept the gift; Jesus doesn't accept our gift for us.

Jesus is the Gift Giver we are the receivers of that Gift by Grace through faith.

 

[MerSee]

That is an opinion. There is nothing in the word of god that says accepting a gift works for salvation. FYI, the word Gift stands alone; It can't be earned even if you accept it.

Accepting a gift takes some effort/work.

 

[MerSee]

Jesus is the Gift Giver we are the receivers of that Gift by Grace through faith.

Jesus Died on the cross for the Just/Elect/Saved whose names are written in the book of life.

 

[CS1]

Accepting a gift takes some effort/work.

to you it does but not in the context of Salvation or the word of God. The emphasis is Grace, Justification, Mercy and faith.

 

[CS1]

Jesus Died on the cross for the Just/Elect/Saved whose names are written in the book of life.

Show me where it says that in the word of God in that context.

 

[MerSee]

to you it does but not in the context of Salvation or the word of God. The emphasis is Grace, Justification, Mercy and faith.

God does not love unrepentant sinners who are in hell.

 

[MerSee]

Show me where it says that in the word of God in that context.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...a-select-or-exclusive-group-of-people.214624/

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

That is an opinion. There is nothing in the word of god that says accepting a gift works for salvation. FYI, the word Gift stands alone; It can't be earned even if you accept it.

I Just have to say its been a pleasure to be in your presence, and also I owe you an apology for doubting your well mannered patience tolerance and ministering gifts

I truly mean that
😊