Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[Charlie_2024]

That 's Because you are not wanting to see or listen. the Problem is the ISM !!!!! I said there are Biblical points supported by scripture for both positions. YOU DO NOT WANT TO HEAR THAT!!!!!!

As many of those hit on the hit by the TULIP attack these who do not accept Calvin as one should the Gospels. You worship it seems John Calvin because you identify as a Calvinist instead with Christ. In most if not all your post I have yet to see the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ that SAVES.

You will never convince me that God is bipolar and that He contradicts Himself. All those who claim this, need to find a qualified Bible teacher to convince them that God is confused and He is mentally sound and He never contradicts what He He said.

I identify as a Calvinist in order to help everyone understand which interpretation of the gospel I believe is the only biblically correct one.

Every sect and denomination claims to follow Christ, but the problem with you guys is, none of you agree with each others interpretations of the gospel and you are all bitterly opposed to each other. But you put on a public display of unity while the truth is most of you hate each other for holding to different interpretations.

I don't want to be in that hypocritical club of professing Christ followers. That's why I cut to the chase and identify myself upfront instead of putting some obscure mysterious Christian facade

 

[Charlie_2024]

We pray in Jesus’ name, Charlie. If you are a Christian, Jesus is available to you. He died for you.

Jesus is not available to me, He is my Lord and Savior and Master and His Holy Spirit abides in me. So that's a bit different to having Jesus available to me. He's not someone I can take or leave, I'm His servant

 

[Charlie_2024]

Where are your scriptures, Charlie? Where does it say that election is unconditional? Where does it say that atonement is limited.

Make sure you get back to me and show me how you trample all over Gods Word.

 

[selahsays]

Jesus is not available to me, He is my Lord and Savior and Master and His Holy Spirit abides in me. So that's a bit different to having Jesus available to me. He's not someone I can take or leave, I'm His servant

You are not a Christian then.

 

[Charlie_2024]

I'm still waiting for you to explain in a coherent way how 1 Tim 2; 24-25 supports your opinion that TULIP is true. I'm waiting for you to critique my critique of your claims about what those verses are saying.

We've been over this before, I explained that you took those verses out of their intended context and misused them to support your biblically erroneous view.

 

[Charlie_2024]

You are not a Christian then.

OK, the Pope is not Roman Catholic, you got it

 

[selahsays]

Make sure you get back to me and show me how you trample all over Gods Word.

View attachment 262464

I don’t think I will. You are an unbeliever who’s not interested in learning the Truth. You are also extremely irreverent towards God. Your other alias (2 Timothy Group) shows me that in your latest thread called I wrote a Letter to my Free Will. Shame on you, Charlie (or whatever your name is).

 

[PaulThomson]

We've been over this before, I explained that you took those verses out of their intended context and misused them to support your biblically erroneous view.

No, you haven't. Which post was that? Link or post number, so I can find it.

 

[PaulThomson]

Nobody has the Holy Spirit. He's not someone you can own. The Lord promised to send us a comforter, not a slave to use to fulfill our lust.
I don't even know who these "us" are that you keep going on about. My understanding is that only gods Elect are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and the rest are all children of the Devil.
Nobody gets the mind of Christ until they are transformed into His image and receive their sinless eternal bodies at the resurrection. So your theology is utterly messed up and incoherent.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Nobody gets the mind of Christ until they are transformed into His image and receive their sinless eternal bodies at the resurrection. So your theology is utterly messed up and incoherent.

Here is what the writer of 1 Corinthians 2:16b had to say (of himself and the other nt apostles), contrary to what you've put:


"15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment. 16“For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. " - 1Cor2:16b ["we have [present tense]"]









[that's what's spelled out in/throughout the NT epistles--that is, we find it there]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ (and on the matter of "know God" talked about earlier in this thread, they/the nt writers also wrote... )

1 John 4:6 - "We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."
[the following verse also uses the phrase "knoweth God" ]









____________

P.S. this isn't me making a judgment call on anyone... I'm simply encouraging posters to look to the scriptures before declaring something IS SO that is actually contrary to the Word.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Yes, and here is another passage with this phrase:

Jde 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jde 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.








[again, this is not my attempt at placing a judgment call on anyone here... ... simply an encouragement to look to the scriptures before declaring something to be so; perhaps, slooooowwww down a bit, lol]

 

[John146]

that scripture interprets scripture

Exactly what I have done. Those in Christ have been predestined unto the adoption. Comparing scripture with scripture, how does scripture define the adoption? The adoption is the redemption of the body as the following defines.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[John146]

God did command His Saints, to preach the gospel to every creature. So as an elected Saint of God, I obey Him. What does that have to do with predestination? can you see how silly you sound.

God doesn't need us to do anything to fulfill His will, but He commanded us to do it anyway. So you have a problem with God and not me, I'm just His servant. You should take your complaints to Him and then we will see how good your religion is against Him.

I have a problem with the Greek philosophy of fatalism that started in the RCC and has made it's way into modern Christianity. It is a philosophy not Bible. Study it and you'll see it's origins, no pun intended. (Origen to Augustine to Calvin)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It's the same deal if we go back to the beginning of time, God preordained and decreed all things as if they had already come to pass and we reached the end of time.

and asking me if God predestined a child murderer to murder a particular child, is not a valid question because God never told us why He allows these things to go on.

Why do you say it is "not a valid question" since you pretty much just stated that God wrote the script (before time) for it to happen (in time)... You are not making sense to me. Which is it? Did He or didn't He?

In one breath you say (essentially) that He scripted everything (before time) to happen as it does (in time), and then you say He "allows" it to happen (as though He hasn't "scripted" it [before time] to happen [in time])... and can't bring yourself to answer directly, the question: Did God script that to happen (did He write it in the script [before time] that that child molester would molest that child when and where he did [in time], or did He not... and only "allowed" it to happen?)

What we do know for sure, is if God didn't allow that murder to happen it simply couldn't happen so it ultimately is Gods will for that to happen and for every other horrible thing you care to mention.

Perhaps study two of the Greek words for "will": boulē or boulomai and thelēma ... for starters.






Then maybe think about verses such as the following (and how they might fit into your ideas you've expressed, or not):

Jeremiah 19 (was this His "will" or does it sound like it was NOT His will, for them to do?) -

4because they have abandoned Me and made this a foreign place. They have burned incense in this place to other gods that neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have ever known. They have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. 5They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it even enter My mind.


[or is it, 'I scripted it to take place [before time], therefore it took place [in time]']

 

[John146]

Nobody has the Holy Spirit. He's not someone you can own. The Lord promised to send us a comforter, not a slave to use to fulfill our lust.
I don't even know who these "us" are that you keep going on about. My understanding is that only gods Elect are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and the rest are all children of the Devil.
Nobody gets the mind of Christ until they are transformed into His image and receive their sinless eternal bodies at the resurrection. So your theology is utterly messed up and incoherent.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God...

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

 

[rogerg]

Scripture doesn't contradict. However, men get it wrong, whereas God doesn't.

One person suggests that Calvin's position is Jesus speaking because he was silent for 2,000 years. That is not true or biblical. Some here are Elevating John Calvin's position as the inspired word of God, the same as in The Gospels. That is foolishness.

John Calvin is not authoritative, nor are his words. Hypocritical reformers say Sola Scriptura yet add John Calvin to the Canon.

I have not read all of Charlie_2024's replies - whether or not he quoted John Calvin in them or just the Bible or both - nor do I plan to right now, but this I will say - that as far as his post #497 goes, I am without question in full, complete and unequivocal agreement with it.

 

[rogerg]

You make a good point in context to a conclusion with scripture harmoning. Yet Mans is limited in their ability.
The Holy Spirit leads us and guides us into all truth and brings everything Jesus has said into our remembrance.

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. " John 16:`3-24

The whole issue, as I said, is the "Ism." One can't make John Calvin into an idol. TULIP acronym



Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints


The five points without context seem pretty solid.

Total Depravity, yes, all outside of Christ are just that.

Unconditional Election: Unconditional election is God’s loving choice of specific sinners for salvation without respect for any good in them.
The issue is those who see this and take it to mean what Only God can know "specific sinners" for salvation.

The focus is not on the specific elect for salvation. The work in on the Gospel message that is able to SAVE.

Limited atonement :

The question is, Did Christ intend to atone for the sins of all people who have ever lived, or did He intend to atone for the sins of the elect only?


That is not the question to ask. Because Only God can know who will be saved. This is elitczing of scripture from asking a question
That was never said in the word of God.

The elect in the Old Testament were the called-out ones, then the Hebrews and the Jews—God's elect. YET it was faith that God asked for did he not?

Hebrews chapter 2, 11

2 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?







11

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, For he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.



Faith in Christ Saving faith and election are to all who answer the call from the Holy Spirit. We are not to be in the game of who is or who is not elect.

It will take me some time to review your post above as there is quite a lot there, but as time permits, I will do so and get back to you on it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here's what I put:

TheDivineWatermark said:
Note carefully the following verses:

-- Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me [/Jesus], except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[TDW]
... and then chronologically later (just before going to the Cross), Jesus said...

-- Jn12:32
And I [Jesus], if I am lifted up from the earth [speaking of the Cross (just future to His saying this)], will draw [future tense] all to Myself."

... and your ( @Charlie_2024 's ) response was:

The Lord Jesus Christ is Jehovah God, so they are One along with the Holy Spirit. We can't separate them and make the autonomous individuals.

So what you are saying, is that you have no qualms about "changing" the texts here to instead say these:


-- Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me [/Jesus], except the Father [JESUS] which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[and]


-- Jn12:32
And I [Jesus THE FATHER], if I [THE FATHER] am lifted up from the earth [speaking of the Cross (just future to His saying this)], will draw [future tense] all to Myself [/Jesus THE FATHER].







I am not seeing how this would be appropriate.

How are you thinking would be?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Exactly what I have done. Those in Christ have been predestined unto the adoption. Comparing scripture with scripture, how does scripture define the adoption? The adoption is the redemption of the body as the following defines.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption process; (1) The Father chooses the child (Eph 1:4). (2) The price is paid for the adoption (John 37-40). (3) The Father brings them home (Matt 25:31-34).