Predestination is misunderstood...
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Someone saying in the old testament times that no one keeps on seeking (present continuous tense) God does not mean that no one was seeking God at that time in Old Testament times. And it certainly does not mean that no one can at any time ever seek God in New or Old testament times..
John saying "Light has come (present perfect indicative active) into the world and men loved (aorist indicative active) the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil" does not mean that ALL men loved the darkness rather than the light all the time.
Jeremiah saying "man's heart is deceitful ('aQoB = deceitful, crooked) above all things and desperately wicked ('ANeS" = very sick) does not mean it is incapable of any good.
God saying that "every thought and imagination of a man's heart at a certain time in history was only evil every day (KoL YoM) " does not mean that "every thought and imagination of every man's heart at a certain time in history was only evil every day."
When Jesus says it is hard for the rich to enter into the kingdom of God, he is not saying it is impossible for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God."
When Jesus says it is impossible for a man to be saved with only the help of other men, he is not saying it is impossible for men to be saved with the help of God.
When Jesus says a man being saved is impossible with men (i.e. with men helping him), but it is possible with God (i.e. with God helping him), he is not saying the man himself does not participate in any way with God and contribute in any way towards his own salvation.
Your proof texts do not say what you want them to affirm.
John saying "Light has come (present perfect indicative active) into the world and men loved (aorist indicative active) the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil" does not mean that ALL men loved the darkness rather than the light all the time.
Jeremiah saying "man's heart is deceitful ('aQoB = deceitful, crooked) above all things and desperately wicked ('ANeS" = very sick) does not mean it is incapable of any good.
God saying that "every thought and imagination of a man's heart at a certain time in history was only evil every day (KoL YoM) " does not mean that "every thought and imagination of every man's heart at a certain time in history was only evil every day."
When Jesus says it is hard for the rich to enter into the kingdom of God, he is not saying it is impossible for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God."
When Jesus says it is impossible for a man to be saved with only the help of other men, he is not saying it is impossible for men to be saved with the help of God.
When Jesus says a man being saved is impossible with men (i.e. with men helping him), but it is possible with God (i.e. with God helping him), he is not saying the man himself does not participate in any way with God and contribute in any way towards his own salvation.
Your proof texts do not say what you want them to affirm.
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Who did God give up to uncleanness? Who did God give up to vile passions?
Those who knew God but stopped glorifying Him as God and were unthankful.
Those who exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and to birds and four-footed beasts and creeping things.
Those who exchanged the truth of God for a lie.
These don't sound like babies just conceived in the womb or babies who are just born, or two year old babies. Those texts don't prove original sin or total depravity in humans from conception..
Those who knew God but stopped glorifying Him as God and were unthankful.
Those who exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and to birds and four-footed beasts and creeping things.
Those who exchanged the truth of God for a lie.
These don't sound like babies just conceived in the womb or babies who are just born, or two year old babies. Those texts don't prove original sin or total depravity in humans from conception..
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So….
Are you saying that ALL Believers are saved?
Are you saying that ALL Believers are the Church?
Are you saying that ALL Believers are the Body of Christ?
Are you saying that ALL Believers are the Bride of Christ?
Are you saying that ALL Believers are saved?
Are you saying that ALL Believers are the Church?
Are you saying that ALL Believers are the Body of Christ?
Are you saying that ALL Believers are the Bride of Christ?
John the Baptist died before the Church age began.
He knew he was not the Bride of Christ.
He even said so...
The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom stands
and listens for him, and is overjoyed to hear the bridegroom’s vows.
That joy is mine, and it is now complete." John 3:29
John Baptist said he was the friend of the groom. Not the Bride!
In eternity only the Church will be the Bride.
John the Baptist (and other Jews and Gentiles who believed before the Church age began)
will forever be the friends of the Groom.
Grace and peace ............
We all begin having no knowledge of Christ's doctrine..
Those who do find the Life Jesus came to give us will face many false teachings along their way in search of the truth.
That is why it says the way that leads to life is *strait* and narrow.
The King James did not misspell the word straight. Strait is the correct word to use. For it means 'strict.'
To find the narrow way (narrow means compressed and under pressure) one must ultimately find a pastor teacher who sticks to a strict adherence to accurately rendering the intended meaning of the original languages. That means he must be a full time student and not a people pleaser, but a God pleaser in what he teaches... That also means he will anger those who prefer the broad and wide way of being told what they want to hear, being taught by weak teachers to fit their subjective experience that demons, like minded believers, and their flesh have influenced..
James 3:1 tells us that only a few teachers will be good. The majority will be seeking their own happiness, not God's happiness.
Amazing how it works out that way.
grace and peace .................
Those who do find the Life Jesus came to give us will face many false teachings along their way in search of the truth.
That is why it says the way that leads to life is *strait* and narrow.
The King James did not misspell the word straight. Strait is the correct word to use. For it means 'strict.'
To find the narrow way (narrow means compressed and under pressure) one must ultimately find a pastor teacher who sticks to a strict adherence to accurately rendering the intended meaning of the original languages. That means he must be a full time student and not a people pleaser, but a God pleaser in what he teaches... That also means he will anger those who prefer the broad and wide way of being told what they want to hear, being taught by weak teachers to fit their subjective experience that demons, like minded believers, and their flesh have influenced..
James 3:1 tells us that only a few teachers will be good. The majority will be seeking their own happiness, not God's happiness.
Amazing how it works out that way.
grace and peace .................
If they did not know what God considered to be sin, there would be no reason for them to consider themselves or anyone else to be sinning against God.
In Genesis 39:9 ... speaking of Joseph and Potiphar's wife, Joseph said it would be a sin against God:
Genesis 39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
If God had not established a law concerning sexual relations between a man and a woman who was the wife of another man, Joseph would not have known it was a sin against God.
Joseph didn't say it would be a great wickedness and a sin against Potiphar ... Joseph said it was a sin against God.
In Genesis 50 ... where the brothers of Joseph spoke about their sin:
Genesis 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.
They were talking about when they left Joseph in a pit which eventually led Joseph to be in the place and position where Joseph's dream came true. Look at the record:
Genesis 37:
18 And when they [Joseph's brothers] saw him [Joseph] afar off, even before he came near unto them, they conspired against him to slay him.
19 And they said one to another, Behold, this dreamer cometh.
20 Come now therefore, and let us slay him, and cast him into some pit, and we will say, Some evil beast hath devoured him: and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
21 And Reuben heard it, and he delivered him out of their hands; and said, Let us not kill him.
22 And Reuben said unto them, Shed no blood, but cast him into this pit that is in the wilderness, and lay no hand upon him; that he might rid him out of their hands, to deliver him to his father again.
It's actually a good thing that Reuben talked them out of killing Joseph because Genesis 9:6 sets forth the law against man killing another man.
Why did Joseph believe it was a sin against God in the case of Potiphar's wife? Could it be because of the law stated in Genesis 2 about the special marital relationship between a man and a woman (which is repeated by Jesus in Matt 19 and by Paul in Eph 5)?
Joseph was not the only one who believed it was wrong to have sexual relations with a woman who was married to another man. Check out Genesis 12 (pharaoh berated Abraham because pharaoh had brought Sarah to his house thinking Sarah was Abraham's sister) and Genesis 20 (same scenario with Abimelech). These men knew it was a sin against God. Under what law?
I believe there was a law in place before the law of Moses. I believe God told Adam, Adam taught his family, and each succeeding generation taught their children ... which is the responsibility of parents to their children. Eventually, God separated out the children of Israel and gave the Israelites what we know as the law of Moses.
all I am asking is that you consider the records ... and especially the record of Abel and Cain. God had taught Adam and Eve how He would be approached. Adam and Eve taught their children. Abel brought his offering in faith ... Cain's offering was not in faith. This record early in Genesis shows man's religion will never bring us to God.
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In Genesis 39:9 ... speaking of Joseph and Potiphar's wife, Joseph said it would be a sin against God:
Genesis 39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
If God had not established a law concerning sexual relations between a man and a woman who was the wife of another man, Joseph would not have known it was a sin against God.
Joseph didn't say it would be a great wickedness and a sin against Potiphar ... Joseph said it was a sin against God.
In Genesis 50 ... where the brothers of Joseph spoke about their sin:
Genesis 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.
They were talking about when they left Joseph in a pit which eventually led Joseph to be in the place and position where Joseph's dream came true. Look at the record:
Genesis 37:
18 And when they [Joseph's brothers] saw him [Joseph] afar off, even before he came near unto them, they conspired against him to slay him.
19 And they said one to another, Behold, this dreamer cometh.
20 Come now therefore, and let us slay him, and cast him into some pit, and we will say, Some evil beast hath devoured him: and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
21 And Reuben heard it, and he delivered him out of their hands; and said, Let us not kill him.
22 And Reuben said unto them, Shed no blood, but cast him into this pit that is in the wilderness, and lay no hand upon him; that he might rid him out of their hands, to deliver him to his father again.
It's actually a good thing that Reuben talked them out of killing Joseph because Genesis 9:6 sets forth the law against man killing another man.
Why did Joseph believe it was a sin against God in the case of Potiphar's wife? Could it be because of the law stated in Genesis 2 about the special marital relationship between a man and a woman (which is repeated by Jesus in Matt 19 and by Paul in Eph 5)?
Joseph was not the only one who believed it was wrong to have sexual relations with a woman who was married to another man. Check out Genesis 12 (pharaoh berated Abraham because pharaoh had brought Sarah to his house thinking Sarah was Abraham's sister) and Genesis 20 (same scenario with Abimelech). These men knew it was a sin against God. Under what law?
I believe there was a law in place before the law of Moses. I believe God told Adam, Adam taught his family, and each succeeding generation taught their children ... which is the responsibility of parents to their children. Eventually, God separated out the children of Israel and gave the Israelites what we know as the law of Moses.
all I am asking is that you consider the records ... and especially the record of Abel and Cain. God had taught Adam and Eve how He would be approached. Adam and Eve taught their children. Abel brought his offering in faith ... Cain's offering was not in faith. This record early in Genesis shows man's religion will never bring us to God.
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Man knows good and evil and has a conscience that is sufficient to convict him of sin. There is afterall and earthly sorrow.
I have no problem considering Cain and Abel. But I'm not going to consider them absent of the whole of scripture. I have no problem believing Cain's offering was not in faith. That makes it sin. But there is no record of a commandment to offer sacrifice or about how to approach God recorded that I can find.
Further, Romans 5:12 doesn't need to be added to scripture to record that men die. This is a well known thing by the time the words were penned. It specifically isolates the time from Adam to Moses. I'm asking you to consider what it was about that time period that wasn't true from that time forward.
I have no problem considering Cain and Abel. But I'm not going to consider them absent of the whole of scripture. I have no problem believing Cain's offering was not in faith. That makes it sin. But there is no record of a commandment to offer sacrifice or about how to approach God recorded that I can find.
Further, Romans 5:12 doesn't need to be added to scripture to record that men die. This is a well known thing by the time the words were penned. It specifically isolates the time from Adam to Moses. I'm asking you to consider what it was about that time period that wasn't true from that time forward.
If Adam wasn't mortal to begin with, how could he die? It is an oxymoron to say Adam was subject to death on contingency of sin (mortal) if he were immortal to begin with. To be immortal means one cannot die. You are either mortal (can die) or immortal (cannot die) you can't be both and you can't go from the latter to the former.
And I'm sure in my conversation with you earlier (it may have been someone else so I apologise if I'm mistaken in this) I said the sin nature (the other law, a genetic corruption in the flesh (Rom.7) was passed on from Adam. This is the physical death passed on and because of this physical corruption, God cannot impart spiritual life to us because the human spirit is born of God (Jn.3:6) and He cannot abide with sin, hence our spiritual death is passed on and this occurs because of Adam's sin and not because of any of our personal sins.
Iow. We don't die because we sin, we sin because we're dead.
And I'm sure in my conversation with you earlier (it may have been someone else so I apologise if I'm mistaken in this) I said the sin nature (the other law, a genetic corruption in the flesh (Rom.7) was passed on from Adam. This is the physical death passed on and because of this physical corruption, God cannot impart spiritual life to us because the human spirit is born of God (Jn.3:6) and He cannot abide with sin, hence our spiritual death is passed on and this occurs because of Adam's sin and not because of any of our personal sins.
Iow. We don't die because we sin, we sin because we're dead.
Which confirms we have a work that must be done. Obviously one cannot believe the truth if one doesn't hear it, but the onus is still on us to believe it when heard. ie. so that you may believe.
The Calvinist concept of some being chosen to have life and others for death based on some unknown thought of God is imo weird. The scripture is clear we are charged to believe God's word. It is not some automatic event that occurs to us, if it were, we would all agree (believe) what the word says.
The Calvinist concept of some being chosen to have life and others for death based on some unknown thought of God is imo weird. The scripture is clear we are charged to believe God's word. It is not some automatic event that occurs to us, if it were, we would all agree (believe) what the word says.
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Only for those believers whom God chose to be born during the Church age.
John the Baptist died before the Church age began.
He knew he was not the Bride of Christ.
He even said so...
John Baptist said he was the friend of the groom. Not the Bride!
In eternity only the Church will be the Bride.
John the Baptist (and other Jews and Gentiles who believed before the Church age began)
will forever be the friends of the Groom.
Grace and peace ............
John the Baptist died before the Church age began.
He knew he was not the Bride of Christ.
He even said so...
The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom stands
and listens for him, and is overjoyed to hear the bridegroom’s vows.
That joy is mine, and it is now complete." John 3:29
John Baptist said he was the friend of the groom. Not the Bride!
In eternity only the Church will be the Bride.
John the Baptist (and other Jews and Gentiles who believed before the Church age began)
will forever be the friends of the Groom.
Grace and peace ............
The Bride will be the ones with the extra oil, lamps lit and ready at the Bridegroom’s coming.
The Son went from being immortal to being mortal to being immortal. So your idea that one cannot go from one to the other is wrong.
Adam's immortality was contingent on him continuing to eat from the tree of life. God took away his access to that tree, and so he lost the source of his immortality.
I agree that we don't die the first physical death because we sin. That death is inevitable, because we are Adam's seed. Even Jesus hd to die, because he is Adam's seed, even though He did not deserve to die.
Adam's immortality was contingent on him continuing to eat from the tree of life. God took away his access to that tree, and so he lost the source of his immortality.
I agree that we don't die the first physical death because we sin. That death is inevitable, because we are Adam's seed. Even Jesus hd to die, because he is Adam's seed, even though He did not deserve to die.
God created Adam with the intention that Adam would go from one form of sinless life to a higher level,
and without need for dying to get Adam there. Until he would get to the next level he would be able to die.
If Adam passed all the testings of the Devil? Like Jesus passed all testing?
God would have escorted Adam over to the Tree of Life..........
.............. and would have told him to pig out!
grace and peace ............
and without need for dying to get Adam there. Until he would get to the next level he would be able to die.
If Adam passed all the testings of the Devil? Like Jesus passed all testing?
God would have escorted Adam over to the Tree of Life..........
.............. and would have told him to pig out!
grace and peace ............
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God created Adam with the intention that Adam would go from one form of sinless life to a higher level,
and without need for dying to get Adam there. Until he would get to the next level he would be able to die.
If Adam passed all the testings of the Devil? Like Jesus passed all testing?
God would have escorted Adam over to the Tree of Life..........
.............. and would have told him to pig out!
grace and peace ............
and without need for dying to get Adam there. Until he would get to the next level he would be able to die.
If Adam passed all the testings of the Devil? Like Jesus passed all testing?
God would have escorted Adam over to the Tree of Life..........
.............. and would have told him to pig out!
grace and peace ............
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With the "extra oil" Jesus was speaking to the future believers alive during the Tribulation....
They went to "meet" the bridegroom. They will be friends of the bride, just like OT saints are friends of the Groom.
The foolish ones were carnal or unbelievers for they did not have the oil of the anointing...
“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps
and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them.
They went to "meet" the bridegroom. They will be friends of the bride, just like OT saints are friends of the Groom.
The foolish ones were carnal or unbelievers for they did not have the oil of the anointing...
In Genesis 3, we read about the slaying of the animal to replace Adam and Eve's feeble attempt to cover the shame of their sin. This is a shadow ... a type ... of the Lord Jesus Christ dying to cover the sin of Adam and Eve, as well as the descendants of Adam and Eve which were still in the loins of Adam and Eve.
Genesis 4:3-4 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering
Is it just coincidence that both Cain and Abel brought an offering to the Lord at the same time?
The words in process of time mean "usually of time, especially in phrase מִקֵּץ at the end of a definite time" (BDB Lexicon).
We see the same thing in the building of altars to the Lord.
Genesis 8:20-21 – And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour;
Genesis 12:7 – Abram builded an altar unto the LORD
Genesis 26:25 – Isaac builded an altar
Exodus 17:15 – Moses built an altar
Were they taught to build altars? Did they just willy-nilly come up with the idea on their own? I don't believe so. I believe God looks on the heart and honors true worship.
Noah built an altar. Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Through Shem we have the Israelites ... what about Ham and Japheth? Did Ham and Japheth turn from God and worship according to Cain as we read about in Gen 4?
is that how pagans learned to build totem poles or altars to sacrifice to their gods? I believe pagan worship is an adulteration of the original instruction from God. As people turned from God, the instruction God had given was changed ... just like Cain had done.
We also read about the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. Abraham taught Isaac ... Isaac taught Jacob ... each generation verbally instructed their children ... all the way to Moses. And the law of Moses reiterates that each generation was to teach the next generation:
Deuteronomy 6:6-7 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
I believe what is written in Deut 6:6-7 is a reiteration of what God told Adam and Eve and each generation from Adam and Eve had a duty to teach the succeeding generation.
You believe what is written in Deut 6:6-7 was never known or commanded prior to when God gave instruction to Moses.
so be it
I do not follow your words "what it was about that time period that wasn't true from that time forward". It appears you're asking what was true about that time that wasn't true from that time.
The way I see it is that Adam was created in the image and after the likeness of God (Gen 1:26) and if Adam and Eve had never sinned, they both would be alive today.
However, they did sin and were no longer in the image and after the likeness of God. Because Adam's children were born in the image and likeness of Adam (Gen 5:3), and each succeeding generation is born after the image and likeness of their parents, all descendants of Adam are subject to the same judgment as Adam and Eve (thou shalt surely die – Gen 2:17), even though they do not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression (Rom 5:14).
What I believe is that all descendants of Adam are subject to the same judgment of condemnation as Adam (Rom 5:18).
so what was true in the time between Adam to Moses as it relates to the judgment upon Adam and Eve is the same as what was and is true to this day.
maybe we're saying the same thing but from different perspectives ???
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Genesis 4:3-4 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering
Is it just coincidence that both Cain and Abel brought an offering to the Lord at the same time?
The words in process of time mean "usually of time, especially in phrase מִקֵּץ at the end of a definite time" (BDB Lexicon).
So it came about in the course of time - NET = "At the designated time." It seems highly unlikely that both brothers would have spontaneously and independently inaugurated what amounts to an act of worship. The fact that both brothers brought offerings to God indicates that somehow they had received instructions on how this was to be carried out. We can only speculate but the fact is God does not give us the details.
NET NOTE - Heb “And it happened at the end of days.” The clause indicates the passing of a set period of time leading up to offering sacrifices."
We see the same thing in the building of altars to the Lord.
Genesis 8:20-21 – And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour;
Genesis 12:7 – Abram builded an altar unto the LORD
Genesis 26:25 – Isaac builded an altar
Exodus 17:15 – Moses built an altar
Were they taught to build altars? Did they just willy-nilly come up with the idea on their own? I don't believe so. I believe God looks on the heart and honors true worship.
Noah built an altar. Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Through Shem we have the Israelites ... what about Ham and Japheth? Did Ham and Japheth turn from God and worship according to Cain as we read about in Gen 4?
is that how pagans learned to build totem poles or altars to sacrifice to their gods? I believe pagan worship is an adulteration of the original instruction from God. As people turned from God, the instruction God had given was changed ... just like Cain had done.
We also read about the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. Abraham taught Isaac ... Isaac taught Jacob ... each generation verbally instructed their children ... all the way to Moses. And the law of Moses reiterates that each generation was to teach the next generation:
Deuteronomy 6:6-7 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
I believe what is written in Deut 6:6-7 is a reiteration of what God told Adam and Eve and each generation from Adam and Eve had a duty to teach the succeeding generation.
You believe what is written in Deut 6:6-7 was never known or commanded prior to when God gave instruction to Moses.
so be it
I do not follow your words "what it was about that time period that wasn't true from that time forward". It appears you're asking what was true about that time that wasn't true from that time.
The way I see it is that Adam was created in the image and after the likeness of God (Gen 1:26) and if Adam and Eve had never sinned, they both would be alive today.
However, they did sin and were no longer in the image and after the likeness of God. Because Adam's children were born in the image and likeness of Adam (Gen 5:3), and each succeeding generation is born after the image and likeness of their parents, all descendants of Adam are subject to the same judgment as Adam and Eve (thou shalt surely die – Gen 2:17), even though they do not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression (Rom 5:14).
What I believe is that all descendants of Adam are subject to the same judgment of condemnation as Adam (Rom 5:18).
so what was true in the time between Adam to Moses as it relates to the judgment upon Adam and Eve is the same as what was and is true to this day.
maybe we're saying the same thing but from different perspectives ???
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Yes!
We can see His face because we have been crucified with Christ!
We no longer live!
We no longer live by our flesh, but we now live by faith we gain through knowledge of God's Word.
Spiritual knowledge that is implemented by means of the filling of the Spirit.
To be chronically carnal? As far as God is concerned?
Is to make oneself into the walking dead.
grace in peace......
We can see His face because we have been crucified with Christ!
We no longer live!
We no longer live by our flesh, but we now live by faith we gain through knowledge of God's Word.
Spiritual knowledge that is implemented by means of the filling of the Spirit.
To be chronically carnal? As far as God is concerned?
Is to make oneself into the walking dead.
grace in peace......
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