Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[TheDivineWatermark]

[Charlie_2024 to TDW] You have misrepresented the Calvinist position, on Romans 9 we don't claim to understand God's mysterious was in dealing with individual cases.

[how have I misrepresented Calvinism / YOUR VIEW on Rom9?]


Okay what did you mean when you had said this:

As a member of the Reformed Church, we hold to the Bible doctrine of Gods Sovereignty over all creation. This means that God predestinated everything that happened from the begging to the end of time, to happen as He decreed it to happen.

...and also this:

Charlie_2024 said:
My bible tells me that God predestined everything before He created anything.

 

[selahsays]

You still haven't presented any biblical evidence to show that Calvinism is not biblically correct. As I mentioned before, Jesus has been silent for 2000 years. He hasn't spoken a single word to men in all that time, so all we have is the same old scriptures to work with.

I take it you're a sheep judging by your theology, you don't sound like a shepherd. Every single Christian must have a shepherd to lead them or they will be devoured by the hungry lion in one minute.

You refer to His gospel, but the problem with that is you haven't identified which of the 40 conflicting versions you believe. Jesus did preach One Gospel, but wicked men have ended up inventing 40 different and opposing versions. 39 are false and only one is true.

Just before you try to convince me that your shepherd convinced you that he has cracked the code and found the one and only true interpretation which is biblically correct, consider that the other 39 shepherds told their sheep that theirs is the only true interpretation and the rest are all Devils in sheep's clothing.

It is evident to me that your theology is incoherent and doesn't line up with the bible, so my question is how do you know that your shepherd is not a Devil in sheep's clothing.

I follow only one Shepherd. His name is Jesus. I trust only Him.

A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; My cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me All the days of my life; And I will dwell in the house of the LORD Forever.

- Psalm 23 (NKJV)

—Selah

 

[selahsays]

Well Christians who believe that are Calvinists, whether they know it or not.

You are attempting to label me, which truly bugs me because I detest labels. How on earth can you possibly know my thoughts or what I genuinely believe?

 

[Charlie_2024]

Note carefully the following verses:


-- Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me [/Jesus], except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.




... and then chronologically later (just before going to the Cross), Jesus said...




-- Jn12:32
And I [Jesus], if I am lifted up from the earth [speaking of the Cross (just future to His saying this)], will draw [future tense] all to Myself."







____________

A few things:


1) Do you see the differences between these two texts?; and


2) I notice that you seem to have LEFT OUT JESUS ALTOGETHER in your quote above (unless you meant "Jesus" in the words you were saying regarding who does the "draw[-ing]" in your quote [at top]--perhaps you could clarify this point, indicating your intention here? Did you mean God the Father [as in Jn6:44] or God the Son / Jesus [as in Jn12:32]?); and


3) Do you believe the "future tense" (in Jn12:32) has any impact whatsoever on how one views the text itself and what exactly it is conveying?

It depends on whose perspective your referring to. There are two different realities existing at the same time.

We have reality from the human temporal, mortal perspective. Then we have reality from God's immortal, eternal perspective.

From Gods perspective, time has already ended . So He can speak as if all of His predestined elect have already stepped outside of time and space and entered into eternity in His Kingdom. Form mans perspective that is yet to take place.

It's the same deal if we go back to the beginning of time, God preordained and decreed all things as if they had already come to pass and we reached the end of time.

The Lord Jesus Christ is Jehovah God, so they are One along with the Holy Spirit. We can't separate them and make the autonomous individuals.

 

[Charlie_2024]

I follow only one Shepherd. His name is Jesus. I trust only Him.

A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of harbourmy enemies; You anoint my head with oil; My cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me All the days of my life; And I will dwell in the house of the LORD Forever.

- Psalm 23 (NKJV)

—Selah

The problem with the Shepherd you follow is, He doesn't have any contact or communication with you. You try to ask Him something and all you will get is stonewalled. He hasn't spoken a Word for 2000 years and you say He's your teacher. Give me a break.

How can He teach and Shepherd you when He's not contactable, nobody even knows His cell phone number, let alone have Bible lessons with Him. Are you sure your not hearing voices or hallucinating, I'll give you my house if you get in touch with Him.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Well I certainly believe my Shepherd when He teaches about election and predestination.

It sounds to me like you have an imaginary Shepherd, you have simply created a Shepherd in your head. Most people create imaginary friends in their imagination, the Bible calls it idolatry.

 

[Charlie_2024]

[how have I misrepresented Calvinism / YOUR VIEW on Rom9?]


Okay what did you mean when you had said this:







...and also this:

I meant nobody can get into the mind of God to find out how or why He does what He does. All we know is that He told us He does it. So we know He predestined everything to be exactly as it is, and if you have a problem with that you have take it up with God and challenge His authority. I wish you lots of luck with that one.

 

[Charlie_2024]

You are attempting to label me, which truly bugs me because I detest labels. How on earth can you possibly know my thoughts or what I genuinely believe?

Well, you have expressed your thoughts and beliefs here. Your understanding of the gospel, is the same as John Calvin's. I don't see any conflict between your theology and his.

I have asked you to point out where Calvin differs from your view, and so far everything you have stated aligns with Calvinism.

 

[John146]

I meant nobody can get into the mind of God to find out how or why He does what He does. All we know is that He told us He does it. So we know He predestined everything to be exactly as it is, and if you have a problem with that you have take it up with God and challenge His authority. I wish you lots of luck with that one.

You continue to post private interpretations while posting very little scripture and then demean people when they disagree with your RCC Greek philosophy of fatalism. We have the mind of God in the scriptures.

 

[Charlie_2024]

The problem with the Shepherd you follow is, He doesn't have any contact or communication with you. You try to ask Him something and all you will get is stonewalled. He hasn't spoken a Word for 2000 years and you say He's your teacher. Give me a break.

How can He teach and Shepherd you when He's not contactable, nobody even knows His cell phone number, let alone have Bible lessons with Him. Are you sure your not hearing voices or hallucinating, I'll give you my house if you get in touch with Him.

Ahhh, you disagree for the sake of disagreement. I notice you haven't found any biblical fault with my summary

 

[Charlie_2024]

You continue to post private interpretations while posting very little scripture and then demean people when they disagree with your RCC Greek philosophy of fatalism. We have the mind of God in the scriptures.

Well, I'm still waiting for you to correct my interpretation with scripture. You keep telling me I'm wrong but you have never provided any evidence to show why. It would really help is you present your case, rather than just attacking me personally.

I'm happy for you to correct me but, I'm not happy with false unsubstituted accusations, don't be like the Accuser. I'm not sure if you know who He is, but you can look Him up in the bible dictionary

 

[selahsays]

The problem with the Shepherd you follow is, He doesn't have any contact or communication with you. You try to ask Him something and all you will get is stonewalled. He hasn't spoken a Word for 2000 years and you say He's your teacher. Give me a break.

How can He teach and Shepherd you when He's not contactable, nobody even knows His cell phone number, let alone have Bible lessons with Him. Are you sure your not hearing voices or hallucinating, I'll give you my house if you get in touch with Him.

So yo have no relationship with God? You don’t hear God in His Word? You don’t pray to God in Jesus’ name? That’s extremely sad, because He is available to you.

Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

- Jeremiah 29:12-13

'Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.'

- Jeremiah 33:3

Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

- Romans 8:26

 

[selahsays]

Well, you have expressed your thoughts and beliefs here. Your understanding of the gospel, is the same as John Calvin's. I don't see any conflict between your theology and his.

I have asked you to point out where Calvin differs from your view, and so far everything you have stated aligns with Calvinism.

Did I not explain with scripture in post #489 that I don’t believe that election is unconditional? And then, did I not show you with scripture in post #490 why it is that I don’t believe in limited atonement? Maybe you need to read more carefully and stop accusing people falsely.

 

[selahsays]

Ahhh, you disagree for the sake of disagreement. I notice you haven't found any biblical fault with my summary

You just accused yourself correctly.

 

[John146]

Well, I'm still waiting for you to correct my interpretation with scripture. You keep telling me I'm wrong but you have never provided any evidence to show why. It would really help is you present your case, rather than just attacking me personally.

I'm happy for you to correct me but, I'm not happy with false unsubstituted accusations, don't be like the Accuser. I'm not sure if you know who He is, but you can look Him up in the bible dictionary

I have posted every verse which contains the word "predestined." None of them is concerning salvation. None. All of them has to do with those who are already in Christ by believing the gospel. Paul gives them the great news that those in Christ have been predestinated unto the adoption which is the redemption of the body. Let the bible define itself, not a RCC priest.

One more time...

Ephesians 1:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

The adoption is the redemption of the body. It is something saved people are waiting for. It is a future promise to those who trust Christ.

Romans 8: 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[John146]

Well, I'm still waiting for you to correct my interpretation with scripture. You keep telling me I'm wrong but you have never provided any evidence to show why. It would really help is you present your case, rather than just attacking me personally.

I'm happy for you to correct me but, I'm not happy with false unsubstituted accusations, don't be like the Accuser. I'm not sure if you know who He is, but you can look Him up in the bible dictionary

One more thing, why are you on here debating? God has already predetermined all things. There's nothing you can say or do to change anything. You are in essence debating against what God has preordained. Do you see the silliness of the Greek philosophy of fatalism?

 

[selahsays]

The problem with the Shepherd you follow is, He doesn't have any contact or communication with you. You try to ask Him something and all you will get is stonewalled. He hasn't spoken a Word for 2000 years and you say He's your teacher. Give me a break.

How can He teach and Shepherd you when He's not contactable, nobody even knows His cell phone number, let alone have Bible lessons with Him. Are you sure your not hearing voices or hallucinating, I'll give you my house if you get in touch with Him.

I’m beginning to think you are an unbeliever. Are you?

 

[PaulThomson]

I meant nobody can get into the mind of God to find out how or why He does what He does. All we know is that He told us He does it. So we know He predestined everything to be exactly as it is, and if you have a problem with that you have take it up with God and challenge His authority. I wish you lots of luck with that one.

The Holy Spirit can get into the head of God, being God. And we have the anointing of the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit shows the things of God to us. Through Him we have the mind of Christ, who is also God.

You obviously don't have the Holy Spirit, or you would know God's mind too. It seems you are envious of those who have what you have rejected, as Cain was envious of Abel. If your religious sect had political power today, you would be burning Christians at the stake like Calvin did.

 

[selahsays]

The Holy Spirit can get into the head of God, being God. And we have the anointing of the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit shows the things of God to us. Through Him we have the mind of Christ, who is also God.

You obviously don't have the Holy Spirit, or you would know God's mind too. It seems you are envious of those who have what you have rejected, as Cain was envious of Abel. If your religious sect had political power today, you would be burning Christians at the stake like Calvin did.

Well stated, brother. Thank you.

 

[Cameron143]

The Holy Spirit can get into the head of God, being God. And we have the anointing of the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit shows the things of God to us. Through Him we have the mind of Christ, who is also God.

You obviously don't have the Holy Spirit, or you would know God's mind too. It seems you are envious of those who have what you have rejected, as Cain was envious of Abel. If your religious sect had political power today, you would be burning Christians at the stake like Calvin did.

Seems all you left off was to tell him he is of his father, the devil.
Dangerous ground to tread.