Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Where there is no Jew or Gentile, no man or woman, no child or grandfather. The Israel of God is all of His elect, from the beginning of time to the end of time.

If you understood the actual grammar of the verse (Galatians 6:16), you would not be saying what you are saying here.

But I explained that in that post.



Okay, let me play your game here for a minute.

According to your post here, then... it is CLEARLY your view that WOMEN CAN PREACH!!! (because there is NO LONGER THAT DISTINCTION [WHATSOEVER]! according to you)




Do you realize how often (just in this thread alone) that you speak out of both sides of your mouth, without even realizing it?




[in your quote above, as well as your post from which it came, you don't even realize what a discrepancy you are creating, all that concerns you is that you mindlessly repeat the "Calvinist mantra" you've heard and read, without giving consideration to CONTEXT and GRAMMAR, etc... ]

 

[Charlie_2024]

I think Charlie has several accounts going at a time, some inactive for later use while he/she/it works others until they get banned on an account. Then he/she/it just creates new ones. I'm pretty sure that he is posting from several different accounts right now.

I think he/she/it doesn't have any friends and can't keep them. How else is he going to have anyone interact with him unless from a negative reaction through trolling? It's just really the saddest form of desperate interaction. What normal person with a good social life does that, lol?!??

Do you know what God said about gossipers and back biters? You should look it up, it's so horrible I won't mention it just incase you don't want to know.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your view of God is that He can only do what you allow Him to do.

How does that ^ jive with what I'd put in my original post to you (Post #347 - https://christianchat.com/threads/c...se-thou-wilt-be-perverted.214479/post-5274734 ), where I'd stated with the actual wording of the Eph text (which passage you had mis-quoted, by the way), where it states this,

"according as He hath chosen us [/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY, per vv.20-23] in Him [/in Christ] BEFORE [PRO] the foundation of the world"



--"BEFORE [PRO] the foundation of the world"... and yet you are accusing me of saying I was there (then) telling God what He can and cannot do?? Sounds a bit crazy and off the rails.
Do you often "accuse" people of having beliefs they do not actually hold? (that's been more than once, toward me, in this thread)

 

[Charlie_2024]

Biblically correct ?

“The Holy Spirit who abides in the elect of god that keeps us from falling away, so it's thanks to Him that the Saints never fall away or lose their salvation.”

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-8‬ ‭

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-30‬ ‭

This whole hypergrace election thing is completely misunderstood to the detriment of the Bible and what God actually has said that will save people that believe

Again, all of that just proves Calvinist theology. You are misapplying verses to try and prop up the false Arminian theology.

Your first argument falls flat on it's face when it it blown away by;

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

There you see the Bible proves you misused and misapplied that passage. and the following about sinning willfully also speaks about false converts, who are exposed by their wicked deeds.

Your third example also falls on it's face, because it condemns sinners and justifies Gods punishment of them in the eternal lake of fire for trampling over Gods free gift of salvation.

Please try to present relevant arguments, to debunk Calvinism. All you've done so far is support us.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Us Calvinists believe everything God said, we don't rubbish any part of what He said.

Who is the "them" in Galatians 6:16, according to you?




IF the verse was worded like: "peace be upon them, and [/even] upon the Israel of God" (i.e. one and the same entity), you would have a legitimate case.



As it stands, it is NOT worded thusly, therefore your argument is severely lacking and massively flawed (given the grammatical realities of said verse). Do you care about what the text itself actually conveys to us? Or not?

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Arminianists believe one can "lose [or forfeit] salvation". I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT.

Again, I am NOT "Arminianist" NOR "Calvinist"...

... but it seems like you are not willing to listen to a person's "reasons" (a biblical defense) why they/I DO NOT ACCEPT *either* of those two viewpoints (neither are accurately biblically). I'm endeavoring to take it (in this discussion thread) verse by verse, passage by passage.
It simply is not true what you stated several posts ago, something to the effect that NO ONE has presented ANY reasonings (only accusations, etc)... *sigh*

Well, you just proving me right again. You quoted me sayin, "nobody has provided a single shred of evidence to show that Calvinism is not Biblically correct"
You 'all keep promising to find the mysterious fault, but all I've seen so far is broken promises and lots of personal slander but no evidence. I did offer my house as a reward to the person who, who finds that illusive evidence.

Every Christian must choose between Calvinism and Arminianism. You said you don't believe a person can lose their salvation, well that makes you a Calvinist. So I welcome you into our camp

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Every Christian must choose between Calvinism and Arminianism.

No they cannot, according to your own [flawed] theology as you have expressed it earlier in this very thread.

According to YOU, God Himself (from before time) wrote the entire script of EVERY single thing that ever takes place in this world (the molesting of children, ax-murdering, etc, ALL SCRIPTED BY HIM, to play out in time!! He's CAUSING each thing to happen, per what you've said)... how are you now saying that "every Christian must choose between..."?

(speaking out of both sides of your mouth, as I recently pointed out to you that you are doing throughout this thread thus far)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You said you don't believe a person can lose their salvation,

Correct.

(so therefore I am NOT "Arminianist," as you accused me of being)

well that makes you a Calvinist

No, I am NOT a Calvinist.

I am NOT saying what "Calvinists" are saying.



For one example, Calvinists are saying the Eph1 verse we've been discussing refers to ALL believers of ALL time-periods.

What *I* am saying is, that the text [and context] itself shows it is speaking SOLELY OF "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (per vv.20-23 WHEN [as to its existence--SEE THAT TEXT]); your mind will try to take that and force INTO the text the [Calvinist / covenant theology-] IDEA of "all believers of all time periods" (here). My argument is that the TEXT ITSELF is saying otherwise.

 

[Charlie_2024]

If you understood the actual grammar of the verse (Galatians 6:16), you would not be saying what you are saying here.

But I explained that in that post.



Okay, let me play your game here for a minute.

According to your post here, then... it is CLEARLY your view that WOMEN CAN PREACH!!! (because there is NO LONGER THAT DISTINCTION [WHATSOEVER]! according to you)




Do you realize how often (just in this thread alone) that you speak out of both sides of your mouth, without even realizing it?




[in your quote above, as well as your post from which it came, you don't even realize what a discrepancy you are creating, all that concerns you is that you mindlessly repeat the "Calvinist mantra" you've heard and read, without giving consideration to CONTEXT and GRAMMAR, etc... ]

You just described yourself perfectly in the reply above.

You sound very desperate, like a person who has invested their whole life under the spell of demonic doctrine. And now sound afraid and unsure of yourself, that's obvious by scrambling for the nearest blunt instrument to defend your religion.

We were discussing the elect of God, which also included Gentiles under the new covenant. The fact that you referred to my comment about God forbidding women to speak in or teach the Church, shows how desperate you are to find a fault with my theology.

The fact that women are forbidden to talk in Church, doesn't preclude them from being saved. They can still be joined to the Body of Christ if God elected them. So can children and every other ethnic group or gender. The only requirement for salvation, is that your name is in Gods book of life.

So please relax and open your mind, you'll be surprised at how much there is to learn.

 

[Charlie_2024]

How does that ^ jive with what I'd put in my original post to you (Post #347 - https://christianchat.com/threads/c...se-thou-wilt-be-perverted.214479/post-5274734 ), where I'd stated with the actual wording of the Eph text (which passage you had mis-quoted, by the way), where it states this,

"according as He hath chosen us [/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY, per vv.20-23] in Him [/in Christ] BEFORE [PRO] the foundation of the world"



--"BEFORE [PRO] the foundation of the world"... and yet you are accusing me of saying I was there (then) telling God what He can and cannot do?? Sounds a bit crazy and off the rails.
Do you often "accuse" people of having beliefs they do not actually hold? (that's been more than once, toward me, in this thread)

Sorry brother, I didn't realize you were a Calvinist. If you believe that God chose His elect before the foundation of the world, then you believe in election and predestination. It's as simple as that, I was under the impression you believed in the other option for salvation which is based on works. (Arminian)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ How about answer my question as to why "them" and "the Israel of God" (Gal6:16) are GRAMMATICALLY DISTINGUISHED in that verse (for starters)...



(just like "male/men" and "female/women" are IN SOME PASSAGES distinguished where Paul is instructing them each individually as to their own [distinct] roles--BECAUSE THEY STILL EXIST in the Body of Christ--Sure, not in our standing before God IN CHRIST, but elsewise they do / are distinguished still)


You seem to be unable to grasp the point another person is actually making, because you are so entrenched in your own ideas (Calvinist ones)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Sorry brother, I didn't realize you were a Calvinist. If you believe that God chose His elect before the foundation of the world

The text says, "chosen us in Him / in Christ"... speaking specifically of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (vv.20-23); NOT all saints/believers of all other time periods (SEE the when in vv.20-23!!)






[note: the when of its EXISTENCE, per vv.20-23, NOT the when of His CHOOSING of it! ("*before [pro]* the foundation of the world")]

 

[Charlie_2024]

Who is the "them" in Galatians 6:16, according to you?




IF the verse was worded like: "peace be upon them, and [/even] upon the Israel of God" (i.e. one and the same entity), you would have a legitimate case.



As it stands, it is NOT worded thusly, therefore your argument is severely lacking and massively flawed (given the grammatical realities of said verse). Do you care about what the text itself actually conveys to us? Or not?

That was written at a time when Gentiles were separate, they weren't officially Church members yet. The Church (Israel and Gentiles) wasn't established at the time that was written, but it did acknowledge them Gentiles

 

[Charlie_2024]

No they cannot, according to your own [flawed] theology as you have expressed it earlier in this very thread.

According to YOU, God Himself (from before time) wrote the entire script of EVERY single thing that ever takes place in this world (the molesting of children, ax-murdering, etc, ALL SCRIPTED BY HIM, to play out in time!! He's CAUSING each thing to happen, per what you've said)... how are you now saying that "every Christian must choose between..."?

(speaking out of both sides of your mouth, as I recently pointed out to you that you are doing throughout this thread thus far)

Sorry, I should have qualified it by saying everyone who professes to be a Christian must choose. We know around 97% are reprobates posing as Christians.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Correct.

(so therefore I am NOT "Arminianist," as you accused me of being)



No, I am NOT a Calvinist.

I am NOT saying what "Calvinists" are saying.



For one example, Calvinists are saying the Eph1 verse we've been discussing refers to ALL believers of ALL time-periods.

What *I* am saying is, that the text [and context] itself shows it is speaking SOLELY OF "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (per vv.20-23 WHEN [as to its existence--SEE THAT TEXT]); your mind will try to take that and force INTO the text the [Calvinist / covenant theology-] IDEA of "all believers of all time periods" (here). My argument is that the TEXT ITSELF is saying otherwise.

I already debunked your theory about this one. I said we can't see the whole of time at once. God is not limited, to your view. He chose every single elect before the foundation of the world. That means everyone who will ever be saved, if a specific verse is speaking to specific people, you can't say that nobody else is a part of that club because the verse didn't mention them.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Sorry, I should have qualified it by saying everyone who professes to be a Christian must choose.

Not according to your viewpoint as you expressed it earlier in this thread. According to you, God (before time) WROTE OUT EVERYTHING that would EVER TAKE PLACE, and then put it into motion. It's ALL A SCRIPT, according to you. Therefore, no choices / volition by ANYONE EVER (believer or not). That's the picture you've presented (as to what you believe) throughout this thread, in a number of posts.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

He chose every single elect before the foundation of the world.

But the text in Ephesians (which you have no quibble with CHANGING) actually states instead, "chosen us in Him [/in Christ] before the foundation of the world" (context: vv.20-23 - "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," IN WHICH there is neither Jew nor Gentile in our standing before God "IN CHRIST"--this was NOT the case / true of Israel in the OT era, see [there were some who believed, however])





[let the reader note: Charlie has no qualms over LEAVING OFF the word "in Him [/in Christ]" and CHANGING "US" to something else ^ ]

 

[Charlie_2024]

^ How about answer my question as to why "them" and "the Israel of God" (Gal6:16) are GRAMMATICALLY DISTINGUISHED in that verse (for starters)...



(just like "male/men" and "female/women" are IN SOME PASSAGES distinguished where Paul is instructing them each individually as to their own [distinct] roles--BECAUSE THEY STILL EXIST in the Body of Christ--Sure, not in our standing before God IN CHRIST, but elsewise they do / are distinguished still)


You seem to be unable to grasp the point another person is actually making, because you are so entrenched in your own ideas (Calvinist ones)

You can't just pluck out a verse of scripture and force your context into it. What point are you trying to make here, are you saying that God didn't elect all of His children at the same time. Are you trying to sell the idea that God decision evolved to include new children as time passed.

My bible tells me that God predestined everything before He created anything. You can talk about child murderers and Adolf Hitlers, but God never told us exactly why He preordained everything the way He did. All He told us to do is trust and obey and don't ask questions for which your not equipped to handle the answer.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You can't just pluck out a verse of scripture and force your context into it.

You've done that yourself repeatedly through this thread, when posting your "TULIP CHART" (which does this very thing).

I am endeavoring to EXPLAIN the passages grammatically and IN CONTEXT, rather than by INJECTING Calvinist IDEAS INTO the text / texts, as your TULIP CHART does (and which you unthinkingly "repeat").

 

[Charlie_2024]

The text says, "chosen us in Him / in Christ"... speaking specifically of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (vv.20-23); NOT all saints/believers of all other time periods (SEE the when in vv.20-23!!)






[note: the when of its EXISTENCE, per vv.20-23, NOT the when of His CHOOSING of it! ("*before [pro]* the foundation of the world")]

I check it out, but I think your using a lot of sticky tape to hold this fragile theory together. I've spent a few years going over all the possible issues and I've come out the other side with a firm Reformed theology.

I'm not going to get into a thorough, review right now but I will get around to it and I will come back with my big gun