Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[Charlie_2024]

Question.

You think he is an arminian based on what facts? I ask, because i know him, and he is most definitely not arminian.

And are you not doing what you claim he is doing except from a calvinist perspective?

As for an error in Calvinism.

Perseverance of the saints. - We do not persevere to the end. God actually keeps us, so we are secured until the end. In effect your teaching a works based gospel while denying it

But I do not want to discuss what Calvin thinks, He is a man,

can you discuss what people actually believe?

OK, if he's not an Arminian then he's a Calvinist as there is no third option. Many claim to have seen one, but we have no proof of it's existence until we find some evidence.

Nobody claimed that Saints persevere to the end, the bible doesn't attribute perseverance to the saints. It actually teaches that one of the signs of a true believer is they endure and persevere to the end, while fake Armenians fall away.

The Holy Spirit who abides in the elect of god that keeps us from falling away, so it's thanks to Him that the Saints never fall away or lose their salvation.

Sorry to disappoint your argument only proves that Calvinism is Biblically correct and Arminianism remains dead in the water.

 

[Charlie_2024]

You won't understand it because you are stuck in a binary mindset.
You are evading. Post your favourite proof text from your menu and let's analyse it to see whether it supports what your lovely menu is claiming it supports.

Yes I knew you would say that, everyone who claims to see ghosts says the same thing. You wouldn't believe it because they only show themselves to me, yeah right. Pull the other one, it plays jingle bells.

Now I wat you to deny all of these bible verses, if you still want to save the dead Arminian doctrine.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

OK, if he's not an Arminian then he's a Calvinist as there is no third option. Many claim to have seen one, but we have no proof of it's existence until we find some evidence.
[...]
Sorry to disappoint your argument only proves that Calvinism is Biblically correct and Arminianism remains dead in the water.

I am another one who is neither Calvinist nor Arminianist.

I don't have the time right now to delve into a whole discussion on that (there've been many past posts and threads where this has been hashed out).

I would simply ask you to look into it yourself, as to how this can be so... because it simply is NOT true that one *must* be either one or the other (of these two options); they are both flawed (biblically speaking).

 

[Charlie_2024]

"While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

It doesn't say while we were "elected," Christ died for us.

Twisting scripture to create a false narrative, is extremely dangerous. How does this verse negate what God said, are you suggesting that God is a liar and He contradicts Himself.

God say He chose His elect before He created the world. You say He chose His elect after they sinned and then He died to save them. See you need to deny what God said and treat Him as a liar for your false Arminian doctrine to float

 

[Charlie_2024]

I am another one who is neither Calvinist nor Arminianist.

I don't have the time right now to delve into a whole discussion on that (there've been many past posts and threads where this has been hashed out).

I would simply ask you to look into it yourself, as to how this can be so... because it simply is NOT true that one *must* be either one or the other (of these two options); they are both flawed (biblically speaking).

Yep, there you go running with your tail between your legs. I have offered my house to anyone who can find a single shred of evidence to support this theory that a third option exists. So far nobody has claimed the free house and everyone who attempted to claim it all said the same thing.
They said they saw it, but it only shows itself to them because they can see ghosts and monsters while the rest of us can't.

 

[PaulThomson]

Yes I knew you would say that, everyone who claims to see ghosts says the same thing. You wouldn't believe it because they only show themselves to me, yeah right. Pull the other one, it plays jingle bells.

Now I wat you to deny all of these bible verses, if you still want to save the dead Arminian doctrine.

Why are you afraid to pick one of your super-verses to discuss? I don't want to deny any verse if it says what you claim it says. But I am not going to spend my time going through all those verses and composing exegeses of them in order possibly to blanket dismiss them all. I am hoping for intelligent dialogue with you over one of them as a starting point.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

God say He chose His elect before He created the world.

The text itself states, "... he hath chosen us in Him [/in Christ] before [pro] the foundation of the world"... where the "us" of this context is: "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (per vv.20-23 [note,] WHEN [as to its existence]);
not all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not OT saints, not Trib saints, not MK-age saints; This is positional truth.)


Study this out for yourself, in Scripture. It is a very rewarding study.






[as an added bonus, since I literally don't have free time ATM, you have access to the whole CC discussion board's past posts [free house!] to "search" out zillions of previous discussions having been hashed out, on this subject Not at all "running" with my tail between my legs. lol]

 

[PaulThomson]

Twisting scripture to create a false narrative, is extremely dangerous. How does this verse negate what God said, are you suggesting that God is a liar and He contradicts Himself.

God say He chose His elect before He created the world. You say He chose His elect after they sinned and then He died to save them. See you need to deny what God said and treat Him as a liar for your false Arminian doctrine to float

God say He chose His elect (that is "the Son) before He created the world. You say He chose His elect (that is, the Son) after they sinned and then He died to save them.


You are straw manning your opponent's position. I'm sure they agree that God chose his elect (that is the Son) before He created the world.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Nothing was more important than obedience, I don't see wat the creation of the beasts has to do with disobedience. Perhaps we can stop playing games and let me know what your trying to say.

well if there was nothing was more important to God than man living alone. Why immediately say its not good for man to live alone immediately after giving a commandment of obedience.

Why not go into to detail what would happen if man was to die.

And why say, it's not good that man should live alone at all.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The text itself states, "... he hath chosen us in Him [/in Christ] before [pro] the foundation of the world"... where the "us" of this context is: "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (per vv.20-23 [note,] WHEN [as to its existence]);
not all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not OT saints, not Trib saints, not MK-age saints; This is positional truth.)


Study this out for yourself, in Scripture. It is a very rewarding study.






[as an added bonus, since I literally don't have free time ATM, you have access to the whole CC discussion board's past posts [free house!] to "search" out zillions of previous discussions having been hashed out, on this subject Not at all "running" with my tail between my legs. lol]

Good morning D.

When you say he chose us to be holy and blameless before the foundation of the world.

Was man blameless after the fall or before the fall 🤔

 

[Jimbone]

We've already found out that calvinists are spiritually bankrupt and not in right standing with the Lord due to their heresy






The false doctrines of calvinist are the lies. Enjoy!

Look I hate lies as much as the next Christian, and only hate them like I do because He showed me the truth about lies and how they hurt and dishonor everyone involved or around them. But to be honest I think telling someone what they believe first, before calling that spiritually bankrupt and not in right standing with the Lord, is just as spiritually bankrupt and "not right with the Lord".

When you start telling people they are Calvinist who have never even read John Calvin or called themselves one, then you go on to break down what YOU say they believe then condemn them as "spiritually bankrupt and not in right standing with the Lord", because of your idea of what they believe without having ever even listened to one word THEY say about what they believe. <---THIS is what I'm calling out specifically, and am doing so because this is what has happen to me here on this site, and seems to be what I see happen in this debate for the most part. I don't ever see the people you call Calvinist here making the arguments you fight so hard against. Please show me where I'm missing these people you're talking about. What I see mostly is two different distinct ways of looking at the same thing. It's all a perspective difference in my opinion, and never worth such horrible insults thrown at each other.

What's really the worst is when condemning a brother or sister for believing something they don't even believe because you're to hard headed to listen to them and try to understand what they REALLY believe, not what you've been told they do.

 

[CS1]

Twisting scripture to create a false narrative, is extremely dangerous. How does this verse negate what God said, are you suggesting that God is a liar and He contradicts Himself.

God say He chose His elect before He created the world. You say He chose His elect after they sinned and then He died to save them. See you need to deny what God said and treat Him as a liar for your false Arminian doctrine to float

your opinion and not accepting it is not creating a false narrative or twisting scripture. Please show where I said or suggested God is a liar ? It is people like you who can't handle people disagreeing with your position on the word of God so you result to attacks and try to label those asa way to intimidate. That will not work JR. Buffoon do such things and those immature.


I am not Calvinist nor Arminian. Both POSITIONS and HAVE BIBLICAL POINTS. Yet the position is not essential of the faith

Christ IS! and you lack that understanding.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

your opinion and not accepting it is not creating a false narrative or twisting scripture. Please show where I said or suggested God is a liar ? It is people like you who can't handle people disagreeing with your position on the word of God so you result to attacks and try to label those asa way to intimidate. That will not work JR. Buffoon do such things and those immature.


I am not Calvinist nor Arminian. Both POSITIONS and HAVE BIBLICAL POINTS. Yet the position is not essential of the faith

Christ IS! and you lack that understanding.

I'm not so sure he knows what he wants to be honest.

Or it may be the case he's figured it's best to be of a certain mindset, but when he chose that mindset I don't know.

Because in another thread his first statement towards Calvinists was to stay away from them.

Then I had to show him he was sharing Calvinist beliefs, to which he replied, ok I confess I'm a Calvinist then.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Why are you afraid to pick one of your super-verses to discuss? I don't want to deny any verse if it says what you claim it says. But I am not going to spend my time going through all those verses and composing exegeses of them in order possibly to blanket dismiss them all. I am hoping for intelligent dialogue with you over one of them as a starting point.

Lets see how you can deny Gods Word here and twist it to mean the opposite. We don't have the liberty to twist the meaning of what God said and to completely change and add to it and take away from it. God said He will cast all those who do this into the lake of fire.

Now lets see you trample of these two verses, and twist their meaning to support your Arminian cult doctrine.

Ephesians 1:4-6

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He 1made us accepted in the Beloved.

 

[PaulThomson]

Lets see how you can deny Gods Word here and twist it to mean the opposite. We don't have the liberty to twist the meaning of what God said and to completely change and add to it and take away from it. God said He will cast all those who do this into the lake of fire.

Now lets see you trample of these two verses, and twist their meaning to support your Arminian cult doctrine.

Ephesians 1:4-6

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He 1made us accepted in the Beloved.

I'm not looking to deny God's word. I am looking to see what it actually says that agrees with your explanation of it, and what in your explanation the text does not say, but you have assumed it is saying.

So, what do you think is the meaning of the Eph 1:4-6 passage? Which of the TULIP doctrines are you claiming it declares? And where do you see TULIP clearly stated in the passage?

 

[Charlie_2024]

The text itself states, "... he hath chosen us in Him [/in Christ] before [pro] the foundation of the world"... where the "us" of this context is: "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (per vv.20-23 [note,] WHEN [as to its existence]);
not all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not OT saints, not Trib saints, not MK-age saints; This is positional truth.)


Study this out for yourself, in Scripture. It is a very rewarding study.






[as an added bonus, since I literally don't have free time ATM, you have access to the whole CC discussion board's past posts [free house!] to "search" out zillions of previous discussions having been hashed out, on this subject Not at all "running" with my tail between my legs. lol]

i know all about those previous discussions, they were all based on the same false premise as your argument. The problem is you failed to embrace the truth that "us" "the Church" and Christ are not constrained to your temporal view.

The Lord Jesus Christ existed before He was born in Bethlehem. He actually created everything that exists, He is Jehovah God so that means He exists outside of time and space.

Your problem and the problem all Arminian cult members have, is you try to force God into your little box but you will never succeed because He's just to big to fit into your little box and mind.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Church and the new Temple, He created everything way back in eternity. He saw the end of time and human history when He created it. He elected a set number of people to save form their sins and adopt them as heirs of His Kingdom, before He created the world.

He knew man would sin and fall, He actually ordained it that way so He can show off His love and justice by saving some and casting others into hell. It was a done deal before He created the world, He wrote the name of every one of His elect in His book of life.

We are all born hating God and serving Satan instead, because we hate the fact that God has all power and we have none. And unless God renews us, we continue to blaspheme His name and hate Him for eternity while suffering in the lake of fire.

As an elect Saint of God, I fully understand why everyone other than His elect Hate God and reject the true gospel. you can hate it and reject it all you like but it remains a stench of death to the un elect and a sweet smell to the elect.

 

[Charlie_2024]

God say He chose His elect (that is "the Son) before He created the world. You say He chose His elect (that is, the Son) after they sinned and then He died to save them.


You are straw manning your opponent's position. I'm sure they agree that God chose his elect (that is the Son) before He created the world.

This is pure blasphemy, to suggest that the Lord Jesus Christ was a sinner who needed to be chosen for salvation. Man you can't be serious, repent now I beg you

 

[Charlie_2024]

well if there was nothing was more important to God than man living alone. Why immediately say its not good for man to live alone immediately after giving a commandment of obedience.

Why not go into to detail what would happen if man was to die.

And why say, it's not good that man should live alone at all.

There's nothing mysterious about God saying, it's not good for man to be alone and creating the animal kingdom and Eve for company. Are you suggesting that God created there's things to save Adam from His sin. That's a ridiculous suggestion

 

[Charlie_2024]

your opinion and not accepting it is not creating a false narrative or twisting scripture. Please show where I said or suggested God is a liar ? It is people like you who can't handle people disagreeing with your position on the word of God so you result to attacks and try to label those asa way to intimidate. That will not work JR. Buffoon do such things and those immature.


I am not Calvinist nor Arminian. Both POSITIONS and HAVE BIBLICAL POINTS. Yet the position is not essential of the faith

Christ IS! and you lack that understanding.

First of all, it is evident you don't even know what Calvinism and Arminianism is about. It's also obvious you don't want to know the the awful truth about the matter, because you would be forced to choose a side. We all know ignorance is bliss, I'm not here to spoil the party for anyone.

But the our position on this is essential, as it get's to the heart of theology. These two present different God's, before us. We can't choose to believe in both God's as they contradict each other. One God says, you are saved by your works and the other says, I save My elect for my own good pleasure and I leave the rest in their sin.

 

[PaulThomson]

This is pure blasphemy, to suggest that the Lord Jesus Christ was a sinner who needed to be chosen for salvation. Man you can't be serious, repent now I beg you

Where did I say, "The Lord Jesus was a sinner who needed to be chosen for salvation" ? There is no "being chosen for salvation" in the passage under discussion. There is being chosen to be holy and blameless before God in love."