Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[HeIsHere]

Faith is the vehicle by which God's grace and salvation come to us. Just as the cross is the means God chose to provide for forgiveness of sin, faith is the means by which God has chosen to manifest His grace and salvation.

God could have done things differently. This is the way and means He chose. During His life on earth, Jesus accomplished all that is necessary for salvation. In our personal salvation, God communicates this to us.

But God is not the source of that faith.
Faith is the condition upon which receive the gift of eternal life.


It is very clearly stated.

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

27She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
John 11

How is this even an point of debate, sigh.

 

[Cameron143]

Does not prove your point

Adam of his own free will was guilty of sin.

God knew Adam would sin, and he already had a plan to restore him and all of his creation to him

But God is a God of love, You do not force those you love to do things they do not want to do.. You may stop them from doing something that will harm them (attempt) but you do not force them to take something. Unless your a dictator.

If God was going to love Adam, in the way you demand he loves us, He would have stopped him from sinning to begin with. Not force him to take his offer of salvation. especially. if God is not going to force all of Adam's children to receive his gift of salvation.

Who said anything about forcing. Not me. But when the grace of God visits salvation towards men, the word of God is employed. And when God employs His word, it always accomplishes what God sent it forth to do.

 

[Cameron143]

But God is not the source of that faith.
Faith is the condition upon which receive the gift of eternal life.


It is very clearly stated.

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

27She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
John 11

How is this even an point of debate, sigh.

Where did the faith come from?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Who said anything about forcing. Not me. But when the grace of God visits salvation towards men, the word of God is employed. And when God employs His word, it always accomplishes what God sent it forth to do.

You did it again.

The word of God is sent to the world.. If what you claim is true, everyone would be saved.

You just can;t get past this point.. Adam had faith, and did not stop God. He chose to recieve Gods offer of salvation.

The gospel is two fold.

1. It says all that God did to save mankind
2. It is a demand for action from the one to who it is given.

All through the Old and New testament, these things are true..

 

[Cameron143]

You did it again.

The word of God is sent to the world.. If what you claim is true, everyone would be saved.

You just can;t get past this point.. Adam had faith, and did not stop God. He chose to recieve Gods offer of salvation.

The gospel is two fold.

1. It says all that God did to save mankind
2. It is a demand for action from the one to who it is given.

All through the Old and New testament, these things are true..

You are correct concerning the gospel. It does go out to all the world and it does call for a response. But your conclusion is wrong. You assume that the only reason God's word goes forth is to produce salvation. But if God's word always accomplishes its purpose and everyone is not saved, perhaps salvation isn't the only reason God's word goes forth.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You are correct concerning the gospel. It does go out to all the world and it does call for a response. But your conclusion is wrong. You assume that the only reason God's word goes forth is to produce salvation. But if God's word always accomplishes its purpose and everyone is not saved, perhaps salvation isn't the only reason God's word goes forth.

This makes no sense
Jesus told many. You do not hear because you do not believe

If you do not believe something and have no desire to believe you will not hear what is said in a way to be convinced. We see this in this chat room every day

 

[Mem]

Abraham's faith, Abraham's believing, was righteousness in God's sight. It does not say Abraham's faith was exchanged for righteousness. It says his faith was accounted as righteousness.

I didn't write anything about that faith is 'exchanged for' righteousness. When you do your counting for any account, you count what's there and can't count what is not, to see if your bank balance.

 

[Rufus]

God didn't reveal everything in the immediate aftermath of the Fall concerning redemption. It wasn't until Noah we learn of grace. It wasn't until Abraham we learn of faith. And so on.
And God did more than cover their shame. He deliberately spilled blood and provided the covering of His choosing. I'm afraid the significance of this is not registering with you. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. And apart from the imputed righteousness of Christ...His covering...we remain naked and undone before God.

Absolutely not true. There is a great deal of truth revealed right in the post-Fall Genesis account -- for those who have eyes to see. Apparently, you didn't read my argument or you just skimmed over it. There's a tremendous amount of information in Genesis. What about the protoevangelium in Gen 3:15? God put enmity only between the Woman and he serpent. Adam was definitely not included in that decree of redemption (or more specifically reconciliation between Himself and Eve).

And how come the the Messiah didn't come by the seed of the man if Adam was a man of faith as you insist? Why isn't Adam also the patriarch of all those who have faith, instead of Abraham? How come God went entirely against the grain of the ancient culture by taking about the Messiah coming from the seed of the woman. And would the Messiah descend from ungodly seed? There are only two seeds mentioned in Gen 3.15. There is no third seed -- for example, Adam's seed. But your argument implies there is. If Adam had faith then he must have been a godly man, yet only the Woman is said to be godly and her seed -- as in future generations that would descend from her. So, where in the world does this leave Adam? I say he was left out in the cold! (Just like there was no room at the inn to accommodate baby Jesus and he had to sleep outside with the animals, God left no third option for Adam! Adam, too, was ejected from the Garden to spend his days outside of it! There was no room for Adam in the Garden.) Therefore, Adam could have only been the serpent's seed! And this makes even more sense since he was a type of Satan, as argued yesterday. (And by the way, Adam isn't the only type of Satan in scripture. He set the precedent but he's not unprecedented as that particular type!)

God sent Jesus to die for the sins of many -- NOT the entire human race! You'll admit that Christ came and made atonement for the sins of the world (Gentiles), yet do you believe he laid down his life for each and every Gentile on the planet? 100% of Gentiles are going to be saved because God sent his Son into the world to [actually] save it, according to Jn 3:17? Or is there an important element missing in the atonement -- the requirement of Faith, perhaps? So, now look at the parallel of what God did in the Garden after the Fall. He provided sin covering for the entire world! Yes...the entire world! Adam and Eve comprised 100% of the earth's human population. They were the world! So because those animals God slew atoned for the sins of the entire world, we're suppose to jump to the conclusion that both people in the world were saved!? If faith is required by Christ's cross work, how come it isn't required in the Garden with those slain animals that substituted for Christ's work? Or did God have a different plan of salvation in the Garden? Maybe Faith wasn't required? Is that what you're suggesting? If not...and you still maintain that Faith would have been required of all two people in the world at that time, then point to the biblical evidence that indicates Adam had saving faith.

 

[Cameron143]

This makes no sense
Jesus told many. You do not hear because you do not believe

If you do not believe something and have no desire to believe you will not hear what is said in a way to be convinced. We see this in this chat room every day

He also said His sheep hear His voice.
It's a simple argument. God says when His word goes forth, it always accomplishes its purpose. When the the word of God goes forth, it doesn't always result in salvation. Ergo, God's purpose in sending forth His word isn't solely salvation.

 

[Mem]

Faith is the vehicle by which God's grace and salvation come to us. Just as the cross is the means God chose to provide for forgiveness of sin, faith is the means by which God has chosen to manifest His grace and salvation.

God could have done things differently. This is the way and means He chose. During His life on earth, Jesus accomplished all that is necessary for salvation. In our personal salvation, God communicates this to us.

Faith is not a vehicle. God's salvation comes to us by His grace, and He communicates that reality by His word, which communicates to us that reality, which is receive it, God's grace and salvation, and be saved or reject it or reject it and take door #2 three which has nothing behind it.

 

[Cameron143]

Absolutely not true. There is a great deal of truth revealed right in the post-Fall Genesis account -- for those who have eyes to see. Apparently, you didn't read my argument or you just skimmed over it. There's a tremendous amount of information in Genesis. What about the protoevangelium in Gen 3:15? God put enmity only between the Woman and he serpent. Adam was definitely not included in that decree of redemption (or more specifically reconciliation between Himself and Eve).

And how come the the Messiah didn't come by the seed of the man if Adam was a man of faith as you insist? Why isn't Adam also the patriarch of all those who have faith, instead of Abraham? How come God went entirely against the grain of the ancient culture by taking about the Messiah coming from the seed of the woman. And would the Messiah descend from ungodly seed? There are only two seeds mentioned in Gen 3.15. There is no third seed -- for example, Adam's seed. But your argument implies there is. If Adam had faith then he must have been a godly man, yet only the Woman is said to be godly and her seed -- as in future generations that would descend from her. So, where in the world does this leave Adam? I say he was left out in the cold! (Just like there was no room at the inn to accommodate baby Jesus and he had to sleep outside with the animals, God left no third option for Adam! Adam, too, was ejected from the Garden to spend his days outside of it! There was no room for Adam in the Garden.) Therefore, Adam could have only been the serpent's seed! And this makes even more sense since he was a type of Satan, as argued yesterday. (And by the way, Adam isn't the only type of Satan in scripture. He set the precedent but he's not unprecedented as that particular type!)

God sent Jesus to die for the sins of many -- NOT the entire human race! You'll admit that Christ came and made atonement for the sins of the world (Gentiles), yet do you believe he laid down his life for each and every Gentile on the planet? 100% of Gentiles are going to be saved because God sent his Son into the world to [actually] save it, according to Jn 3:17? Or is there an important element missing in the atonement -- the requirement of Faith, perhaps? So, now look at the parallel of what God did in the Garden after the Fall. He provided sin covering for the entire world! Yes...the entire world! Adam and Eve comprised 100% of the earth's human population. They were the world! So because those animals God slew atoned for the sins of the entire world, we're suppose to jump to the conclusion that both people in the world were saved!? If faith is required by Christ's cross work, how come it isn't required in the Garden with those slain animals that substituted for Christ's work? Or did God have a different plan of salvation in the Garden? Maybe Faith wasn't required? Is that what you're suggesting? If not...and you still maintain that Faith would have been required of all two people in the world at that time, then point to the biblical evidence that indicates Adam had saving faith.

We disagree on what the actions of God after the Fall on behalf of Adam and Eve mean. But thanks for the discussion.

 

[Cameron143]

Faith is not a vehicle. God's salvation comes to us by His grace, and He communicates that reality by His word, which communicates to us that reality, which is receive it, God's grace and salvation, and be saved or reject it or reject it and take door #2 three which has nothing behind it.

We disagree. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. The verse goes on to say that this is not of ourselves. What is not of ourselves? Salvation? Grace? Faith? Some? All?

 

[PaulThomson]

We disagree. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. The verse goes on to say that this is not of ourselves. What is not of ourselves? Salvation? Grace? Faith? Some? All?

"That we are saved by grace through faith" is the gift and not of ourselves: not our idea..

 

[Cameron143]

"That we are saved by grace through faith" is the gift and not of ourselves: not our idea..

It means far more than simply not being our idea.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

"That we are saved by grace through faith" is the gift and not of ourselves: not our idea..

It means far more than simply not being our idea.

Amen!

“For My Thoughts [ are ] not your thoughts, neither [ are ] your ways My Ways,​

Saith The LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My Ways ​

Higher Than your ways, and My Thoughts Than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)​

Amen again.

 

[PaulThomson]

I didn't write anything about that faith is 'exchanged for' righteousness. When you do your counting for any account, you count what's there and can't count what is not, to see if your bank balance.

OK I misunderstood your use of "for".

 

[Rufus]

He also said His sheep hear His voice.
It's a simple argument. God says when His word goes forth, it always accomplishes its purpose. When the the word of God goes forth, it doesn't always result in salvation. Ergo, God's purpose in sending forth His word isn't solely salvation.

OR...God's Word always does accomplish his purpose. What if his purpose is to save only his chosen ones? Is there any passage in scripture that says that God always intended to save the entire world in the distributive sense?

 

[Cameron143]

OR...God's Word always does accomplish his purpose. What if his purpose is to save only his chosen ones? Is there any passage in scripture that says that God always intended to save the entire world in the distributive sense?

Of course not. That's my point. God's word going forth doesn't always result in salvation. But it does always accomplish its purpose. Ergo, salvation isn't the only reason God's word goes forth.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

He also said His sheep hear His voice.
It's a simple argument. God says when His word goes forth, it always accomplishes its purpose. When the the word of God goes forth, it doesn't always result in salvation. Ergo, God's purpose in sending forth His word isn't solely salvation.

Its a poor argument.

Again, if his word went out, then everyone would be saved.
if th power was in the word. The word would make everyone wh hears or reads understand.

You still have God forcing people to believe and others to deny.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

OR...God's Word always does accomplish his purpose. What if his purpose is to save only his chosen ones? Is there any passage in scripture that says that God always intended to save the entire world in the distributive sense?

But Gods word does nto say this

it says whoever will believe will be saved.

God will is that whoever hears and believes will pass from judgment.

If it always accomplished its purpose. We would not have evil in the world today.