Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#3,601
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#3,601
Cameron143 said:
He considers one dime his tip.
And he thinks you are both cheapwads.
I guess I would have a dilemma if I thought both could pay. But a just waiter could only accept 1 payment. A loving waiter would pay for both coffees.
Click to expand...
Alas, inflation has distorted your sense of the value for a cup of coffee. Even so, God does value each life above the price of a cup of coffee. Yet the Lord has no pleasure in the death of anyone (Ezekiel 18:32), not even the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11a). So, it isn't so apparent that God always does as He pleases. But rather, God does take pleasure in that they turn from their ways and live (Ezekiel 33:11b). God values each life so much that He gave...that whomever....might live (1 John 4:9) and may live (1 Thes 5:10), through Him. And we do know, indeed there is no pleasing God without faith, since this is what we must have (not just in hand but in heart) when we turn to Him, with all our hearts, all our minds.

My thought might just be rambling at this point as continue to meditate on the paradox of a cheap and priceless life. And if I can establish that the life of the wicked is regarded just as 'precious' to God as the saved, I could then rest my case. :unsure: The weakest point in my argument is that their death does pay for their sin, and so they are forgiven, not in Him (Whom in we have eternal life) but , in their death (and so (without Him) do not possess eternal life).
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#3,602
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#3,602
@Cameron143 , I partial to arguing with you because you do have the strongest argument in opposition to my view, beside your graceful manner of argument.

And to clarify, I am not arguing that man can pay for his life, but for his sins, by death.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,603
Mar 1, 2022
20,075
6,882
113
62
#3,603
Mem said:
Alas, inflation has distorted your sense of the value for a cup of coffee. Even so, God does value each life above the price of a cup of coffee. Yet the Lord has no pleasure in the death of anyone (Ezekiel 18:32), not even the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11a). So, it isn't so apparent that God always does as He pleases. But rather, God does take pleasure in that they turn from their ways and live (Ezekiel 33:11b). God values each life so much that He gave...that whomever....might live (1 John 4:9) and may live (1 Thes 5:10), through Him. And we do know, indeed there is no pleasing God without faith, since this is what we must have (not just in hand but in heart) when we turn to Him, with all our hearts, all our minds.

My thought might just be rambling at this point as continue to meditate on the paradox of a cheap and priceless life. And if I can establish that the life of the wicked is regarded just as 'precious' to God as the saved, I could then rest my case. :unsure: The weakest point in my argument is that their death does pay for their sin, and so they are forgiven, not in Him (Whom in we have eternal life) but , in their death (and so (without Him) do not possess eternal life).
Click to expand...
Simply paying for sin only removes the sin debt. It does nothing toward paying to God the righteousness that the law demanded in lieu of our sin. One would still need the imputed righteousness of Christ.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#3,604
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#3,604
Cameron143 said:
Simply paying for sin only removes the sin debt. It does nothing toward paying to God the righteousness that the law demanded in lieu of our sin. One would still need the imputed righteousness of Christ.
Click to expand...
Faith imputes that, and so it follows that we cannot please God without it, since He desires that all me be righteous as He is righteous.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,605
Mar 1, 2022
20,075
6,882
113
62
#3,605
Mem said:
Faith imputes that, and so it follows that we cannot please God without it, since He desires that all me be righteous as He is righteous.
Click to expand...
Where does it say faith imputes righteousness?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,607
Mar 1, 2022
20,075
6,882
113
62
#3,607
Mem said:
In Abraham's account, it (faith) was accounted to Him for righteousness.
Click to expand...
You don't see a difference between accounting and imputing?
For me, accounting just tells us what exists, while imputing means actually transferring something. In other words, one is a deposit. The other is the ledger that records the deposit.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#3,608
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#3,608
Cameron143 said:
You don't see a difference between accounting and imputing?
For me, accounting just tells us what exists, while imputing means actually transferring something. In other words, one is a deposit. The other is the ledger that records the deposit.
Click to expand...
I gather that it had to be imputed in order for it to be counted, since none of us have any righteousness of our own. Do we?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,609
Mar 1, 2022
20,075
6,882
113
62
#3,609
Mem said:
I gather that it had to be imputed in order for it to be counted, since none of us have any righteousness of our own. Do we?
Click to expand...
Faith is the ledger that records the deposit...evidence that a deposit has taken place. The actual transfer I believe was made before it was recorded.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#3,610
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#3,610
Cameron143 said:
Faith is the ledger that records the deposit...evidence that a deposit has taken place. The actual transfer I believe was made before it was recorded.
Click to expand...
I see faith as the deposit that is recorded in the ledger, though who generates the faith, and how, can be argued.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,611
Mar 1, 2022
20,075
6,882
113
62
#3,611
Mem said:
I see faith as the deposit that is recorded in the ledger, though who generates the faith, and how, can be argued.
Click to expand...
Agree. But my original response was in regard to those paying their own debt. And my argument was that even if they paid their own debt, there is still no way for them to have righteousness imputed to them. That isn't true this side of the grave.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#3,612
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#3,612
Cameron143 said:
Agree. But my original response was in regard to those paying their own debt. And my argument was that even if they paid their own debt, there is still no way for them to have righteousness imputed to them. That isn't true this side of the grave.
Click to expand...
Right, I do not hold to the opinion that anyone can gain eternal life apart from the righteousness imputed to them through Christ. Am I right to assume that you regard the forgiveness of sins with imputed righteousness?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,613
Mar 1, 2022
20,075
6,882
113
62
#3,613
Mem said:
Right, I do not hold to the opinion that anyone can gain eternal life apart from the righteousness imputed to them through Christ. Am I right to assume that you regard the forgiveness of sins with imputed righteousness?
Click to expand...
Forgiveness of sins was accomplished at the cross. Christ also fulfilled all righteousness at that time as well. Salvation in my view is God manifesting to an individual what He has done on their behalf in space and time.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#3,614
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#3,614
Cameron143 said:
Forgiveness of sins was accomplished at the cross. Christ also fulfilled all righteousness at that time as well. Salvation in my view is God manifesting to an individual what He has done on their behalf in space and time.
Click to expand...
Faith is only proof that you are saved? It doesn't seem to me that faith to be saved can be counted for anything if you can't have it unless you are saved. God doesn't save the faithful, but rather the faithful are saved to be faithful?

I can't understand it that way but thanks for trying to explain it to me. I don't want to believe wrong, but there's not much I can do but believe the way God does or doesn't want me to, is there?
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
#3,615
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#3,615
Rufus said:
But I do know what scripture teaches, which brings us back to Ishmael. He was not a child of the promise.

But I would love to see chapter and verse that proves what you claim about Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah and "this junk by Mohammed". Or did you make this up from whole cloth?
Click to expand...
No one claimed Ishmael was the child of Promise.

There's several sects of Muslims.
1. who follows Mohammed (2 major groups)
2. who follows basically the Hebrew Old Testament (Tanakh)

You would be shocked at how close to Abraham believed they follow.

I know because I did not say to myself, a Muslim, they are this and that. I was friendly, became friends, and over a period of 7 years met many who shared their beliefs. They pretty much believe from Adam/Eve to Father Abraham and the Prophets. And their usage of Allah, is the word God in their native language. So they are not claiming God's name is Allah, they are just saying God when they say Allah.

Being from what I am (Yiddish) I have much in common and easier for me to approach them and for them to trust me.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#3,617
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
#3,617
Cameron143 said:
Isaiah 55:10-11...For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither,but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower and bread to the eater:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Click to expand...
Does not prove your point

Adam of his own free will was guilty of sin.

God knew Adam would sin, and he already had a plan to restore him and all of his creation to him

But God is a God of love, You do not force those you love to do things they do not want to do.. You may stop them from doing something that will harm them (attempt) but you do not force them to take something. Unless your a dictator.

If God was going to love Adam, in the way you demand he loves us, He would have stopped him from sinning to begin with. Not force him to take his offer of salvation. especially. if God is not going to force all of Adam's children to receive his gift of salvation.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#3,618
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
#3,618
Rufus said:
Anyhoo...if there's any comfort in numbers, I'd say most Christians probably believe as you and Stan do. So there's that... :)
Click to expand...
You really think this? I do not...

And as for where is evidence of Adam's faith? Did Adam fight God did he resist, did he do anything to stop God?

If not. He must have trusted God.

Imagine seeing the death of a living creature for the first time in your existence. Knowing that it was YOUR SIN that caused that death. Then seeing the skins removed, and being told to put that on to cover to cover your nakedness. Imagine the shame and horror and guilt you would endure

I do not think we understand or comprehend what happened.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#3,619
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
#3,619
Mem said:
In Abraham's account, it (faith) was accounted to Him for righteousness.
Click to expand...
Abraham's faith, Abraham's believing, was righteousness in God's sight. It does not say Abraham's faith was exchanged for righteousness. It says his faith was accounted as righteousness.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,620
Mar 1, 2022
20,075
6,882
113
62
#3,620
Mem said:
Faith is only proof that you are saved? It doesn't seem to me that faith to be saved can be counted for anything if you can't have it unless you are saved. God doesn't save the faithful, but rather the faithful are saved to be faithful?

I can't understand it that way but thanks for trying to explain it to me. I don't want to believe wrong, but there's not much I can do but believe the way God does or doesn't want me to, is there?
Click to expand...
Faith is the vehicle by which God's grace and salvation come to us. Just as the cross is the means God chose to provide for forgiveness of sin, faith is the means by which God has chosen to manifest His grace and salvation.

God could have done things differently. This is the way and means He chose. During His life on earth, Jesus accomplished all that is necessary for salvation. In our personal salvation, God communicates this to us.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.