Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Romans34

... let God be true ...
Oct 28, 2023
309
125
43
However, if you have a specific scripture-based proposition related to this topic that you'd like to discuss, please provide the relevant scripture verses or points you'd like to explore.
As we continue exploring this topic, if there are specific verses or aspects you'd like to delve into further or if you have other scripture-based propositions or questions, please share them, and we can continue this intriguing discussion.
. . . I'm here to engage in thoughtful discussions and provide insights based on the information in the Bible. If there are specific verses or aspects of scripture you'd like to explore further or if you have additional scripture-based propositions or questions, please share them, and we can continue this meaningful conversation.
Have you read this thread (especially my posts). Are YOU willing to address the question I keep asking? The question is there to provoke thought, not that I'm interested in an exact distance. But it makes the point that the sun, moon, and stars are NOT as far away as we're led to believe.
 
Sep 15, 2019
9,989
5,540
113
- including discernment concerning discernment about the discernment of the context of 'discernment'...

:LOL:
I already related to it that it had failed the Turing test. To its credit, it took several posts for some of us to notice.

One of the best ways to interpret scripture is to have enough faith in God to be assured that He knew what He was doing what He inspired it. Have you failed the Turing test?
 

Romans34

... let God be true ...
Oct 28, 2023
309
125
43
Is it just me - or do the posts of @Tulipbee read like they were coming from ChatGPT or some such similar thing...???
I don't know what a ChatGPT is, but if you'll read in the thread The Security Of The Believer, starting on page 93, posts 1844-1853 and 1861, I think it might answer your question.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,883
4,345
113
mywebsite.us
I don't know what a ChatGPT is, but if you'll read in the thread The Security Of The Believer, starting on page 93, posts 1844-1853 and 1861, I think it might answer your question.
ChatGPT is [supposed to be] an online A.I. 'portal'. I believe that it:

~ is not "full-blown A.I." - a certain amount of human interaction is required behind-the-scenes.
~ was set up for the purpose - more than anything else - to collect information from people using it.
 

Sculpt

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2021
1,147
368
83
Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition (Part Four : The Question)

Since God placed the luminaries withIN the firmament . . .

In the days of Noah when He opened the windows of heaven,
how far did the water fall to the earth?

A hundred miles? A thousand miles? Or was it 25 trillion miles???

Proxima Centauri is said to be the closest star at 4.2465 light years away. That’s 24.93 trillion miles.

So how far did the water fall to the earth?


**Note also that about 1000 years before the coming of Christ (over 1300 years after the flood)
king David declared that the waters were still there when he wrote,
Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens”.

View attachment 257281
Howdy, Romans34! I wanted to engage with your premise and get your reaction.

You suggest scripture indicates the water of The Flood came from 'the waters above the firmament', that is, the waters separating the 2nd heaven and the 3rd heaven. The Genisis Flood' scripture does not indicate that. It reads it came from the heavens and underground waters of the earth (I'll put the verses below). Rain comes from the 1st heaven. Simply put, are you not declaring the rain came from 'the waters above the firmament', rather than the plain and obvious reading of the 1st heaven: the sky? Why would you do this?

I see you're a King James Version man in your post. Genesis 7:

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
 

Romans34

... let God be true ...
Oct 28, 2023
309
125
43
Howdy, Romans34! I wanted to engage with your premise and get your reaction.

You suggest scripture indicates the water of The Flood came from 'the waters above the firmament', that is, the waters separating the 2nd heaven and the 3rd heaven. The Genisis Flood' scripture does not indicate that. It reads it came from the heavens and underground waters of the earth (I'll put the verses below). Rain comes from the 1st heaven. Simply put, are you not declaring the rain came from 'the waters above the firmament', rather than the plain and obvious reading of the 1st heaven: the sky? Why would you do this?
Before I answer your question, please explain how the "plain and obvious reading" necessitates that rain came from the first heaven when there's no indication that any water existed between "the waters which were under the firmament" and "the waters which were above the firmament" until after the flood?
 
Dec 29, 2023
1,327
238
63
Before I answer your question, please explain how the "plain and obvious reading" necessitates that rain came from the first heaven when there's no indication that any water existed between "the waters which were under the firmament" and "the waters which were above the firmament" until after the flood?

Ha ha, the old answering a question with a question thing!

I know, sometimes it's necessary in order to see where someone's thinking is at.
 

Sculpt

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2021
1,147
368
83
Before I answer your question, please explain how the "plain and obvious reading" necessitates that rain came from the first heaven when there's no indication that any water existed between "the waters which were under the firmament" and "the waters which were above the firmament" until after the flood?
I want to make sure I understand your question, and that we are talking about the same things. Let's break what I think you're saying into two parts. One: defining "the waters which were under the firmament". Two: rain before or after the flood.

ONE: How are you defining "the waters which were under the firmament"? To me, it means what it reads: water under the firmament. The firmament, or expanse, is the expanse containing stars, Sun and Moon (sequentially, the 2nd heaven). That's the dividing line. Water above that, and water below that. We agree on that, yes?

What's below the firmament? Answer: the sky, the surface of the earth and below the surface of the earth. This is the other side of the diving line. This is "the waters which were under the firmament". Are you disagreeing with this? If so, why?

Gen 1:20 "And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.” Birds fly in what area? Answer: the area above the surface of the earth and below the expanse/firmament of the stars, Sun and Moon. This is sequentially the 1st heaven. The Bible describes three heavens.
---------------------

TWO: Gen 6 begins the Flood account. Gen 2:5 reads, "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground." There's no man to till the field yet. Then what happens? "7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.". Now there's a man to till the soil. Then the Lord plants the garden.

In Gen 7:4 the Lord says to Noah, "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth." Gen 7:11 "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights."

These scriptures are why I say the flood waters came from the depths of the earth and rain from the sky also known as the 1st heaven, where birds fly. Man has discovered there is vast amounts of water under the surface of the earth, and it rains from the sky. There's no scriptural account of Noah asking the Lord, "What's rain?" There is no scripture that reads The Flood Waters came from the waters above the firmament/expanse of stars/sun/moon. The Flood account is complete and sufficient. Why would anyone bring in a non-scriptural claim that the waters from above the firmament/expanse of stars/sun/moon, waters that Lord separated from the expanse and earth, was used for the Flood? Unnecessary and unscriptural.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,883
4,345
113
mywebsite.us
Genesis 1:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

At the point between verses 5 and 6, the earth is composed of only water. (At least, on the surface - the whole surface was only water.)

At the point between verses 8 and 9, the earth is still composed of only water - and, there is water above the firmament - which is "the whole expanse" between the waters below and the waters above.

The firmament, or expanse, includes everything above the oceans up to but below the waters above the firmament.

Before the land ever appeared, this 'expanse' was defined.

So, the 'atmosphere' - where the birds fly - is part of the firmament - not below it.

Genesis 1:

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The birds fly 'in the open firmament of heaven'.

The birds fly in it and not in a space below it.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,883
4,345
113
mywebsite.us
In other words, there is no water-under-the-firmament apart from sea-level water. Clouds, whenever they have existed, are in the firmament.

Not really wanting to get into the 'rain' debate - just want to "set straight" the definition of 'firmament' according to scripture.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,883
4,345
113
mywebsite.us
The firmament, or expanse, is the expanse containing stars, Sun and Moon (sequentially, the 2nd heaven).
The beginning of knowledge and understanding in this matter:

The firmament is the 'expanse' that contains the Sun, Moon, and Stars - AND - is also where the birds fly.

The same 'expanse' according to the Bible definition of 'firmament' includes both the '1st heaven' and the '2nd heaven'.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,883
4,345
113
mywebsite.us
Genesis 1:

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
Genesis 1:

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
One of the greatest understatements in all of the Bible...He made also the stars. 2.5 billion stars in our galaxy alone. And He knows them all by name.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,883
4,345
113
mywebsite.us
Please note that, according to scripture, there is water present "above" the Sun, Moon, and Stars.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,441
3,222
113
Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition (Introduction)

I would like to begin by saying that I am not the most humble man alive, but I am certainly not arrogant. I’m not trying to represent myself as humble, but to express my sincerity. There’s no place for arrogance in knowing the Truth. Coming to the realization of the Truth is a very humbling experience. If one is not humbled by the Truth, then what he knows is probably not the Truth. With knowing the truth comes a responsibility to share it, because so many do not know it. And if one cannot share it with love and humility (like Jesus did), then one probably doesn’t need to be sharing it until becoming more compassionate and humble. Jesus not only knew the truth, He IS Truth, and He was compassionate and meek and gentle. Although we struggle with this as long as we are in the flesh, if we know Him, we must try to be like Him and to please Him, and not ourselves.

Proverbs 18:13 states “He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.”

In light of this, I would like to encourage the reader to be patient, read, and reason with the proposition in its entirety before responding. This might save one from embarrassment and humiliation later on. However, if one must be impatient and exhibit any height of hubris, please be warned that some questions will be asked that will not be answerable, further exasperating the situation.

This presentation is based on Scripture. If you do not believe that the Bible is the unadulterated inerrant Word of God, then you will probably be wasting your time. On the other hand, read on anyway, and you may change your mind. But if you DO believe – if you really, really, really DO BELIEVE that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God …” (2 Timothy 3:16a), then please consider the following proposition.

[Also, I am no artist, but the illustrations should suffice.]

There are four more posts to this presentation BEYOND this Introduction.

Please be respectful and wait until all four are posted (five posts total) before posting yourself. Thank You.
This question has been asked and answered countless times. Do yourself a favour, leave it alone. You will not change the minds of those who know that the earth is a globe and I've yet to come across an Flefer who will admit that they are wrong. No one will be saved by subscribing to either view, neither will anyone be condemned.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,606
13,863
113
So, the 'atmosphere' - where the birds fly - is part of the firmament - not below it.

Genesis 1:

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The birds fly 'in the open firmament of heaven'.

The birds fly in it and not in a space below it.
This rather kills the whole "dome" theory.
 

Zandar

Well-known member
May 16, 2023
1,651
653
113
the firmament may be made of something like plasma and it starts at 100k feet and goes up. above that would be water. its rumored that countries have fired off nukes against it and it doesnt phase it. the sun and moon are made of this plasma and move inside the firmament. the stars are attached to the top of the firmament. of course no one can ever truly understand it
 

Zandar

Well-known member
May 16, 2023
1,651
653
113
its a spherical cap above the breathable atmosphere. maybe