Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Rufus]

Without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6) so Adam would had to have walked in faith before he sinned otherwise God would have rejected him for not walking in faith long before he ate of the tree in disobedience.

There's nothing in scripture that tells us Adam was not pleasing to God before he ate of the tree.

It matters not what Adam did prior to his sin. It's what scripture teaches AFTER he sinned. Especially his sin, since he is charged in scripture with the ruin of all creation!

You could present this kind of argument for Eve also, could you not? But scripture makes it a point of talking positively (explicitly and implicitly) about her after she sinned. Why does no such post-fall evidence exist for Adam? Or worse yet, why does scripture speak only negatively about him after he sinned? Can you think of any saint in scripture who also shares these two dubious distinctions with Adam?

 

[Cameron143]

As does much, if not most, of the Church also believe. As I explained in my argument, in anticipation of this kind of argument, God's provision of covering does not mean it was accepted by faith. (I doubt Cain ran around naked. So assuming he didn't, then what good did his covering do for him?) There is zero evidence in scripture that Adam ever had faith; whereas the contrary is true of Eve. Even worse for Adam is that scripture never speaks of him in positive terms. To the contrary! He's contrasted with Christ twice in the NT.

I have to go with the preponderance of evidence presented in my argument re both our first parents.

God didn't shed blood and clothe Cain personally. It's a picture when God does it of clothing us in the righteousness of Christ. You can believe as you will, of course, but using Adam in juxtaposition to Christ doesn't preclude him from salvation.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

On one side is Faith; on the other is Faithfulness

Exactly! Many think faith is just a one time moment of belief, but biblical faith includes being faithful to the Lord unto the end of our lives.

Our relationship with the Lord is like a marriage, we are not to be our whoring around with the world - we are to remain faithful to the Lord and not depart from Him.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

But scripture makes it a point of talking positively (explicitly and implicitly) about her after she sinned

Scripture says she was deceived, which is not exactly a glowing report of her character.

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

What's even worse is the Word tells us Adam was not deceived which means Adam knew eating of the tree was a sin before he did it. That of course is worse than what Eve did but does not absolve her of wrong doing.

 

[Rufus]

God didn't shed blood and clothe Cain personally. It's a picture when God does it of clothing us in the righteousness of Christ. You can believe as you will, of course, but using Adam in juxtaposition to Christ doesn't preclude him from salvation.

Yes, it is a picture of that. But the 64K question remains:. Did Adam accept God's provision by faith? We certainly have evidence Eve did! Also, God through the Law made atonement provision for his chosen people Israel, did he not? First he gave them Ark of the Covenant. Then the Tent of Meeting. Then a brick 'n' mortal temple. The holy days of observance. Then the priesthood, etc., etc. He provided all of these for Israel's eternal benefit and well being. How did all of that work out for most of Israel? It didn't, did it? Why? Because they had no faith!

As far as Adam being an OT saint while simultaneously being only contrasted with Christ (not to mention all the other negatives stated previously) this would all be unprecedented in scripture. And when something is unprecedented that clearly goes against the grain of all scripture, I go with the grain in accordance with hermeneutical principles I use to interpret scripture.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, it is a picture of that. But the 64K question remains:. Did Adam accept God's provision by faith? We certainly have evidence Eve did! Also, God through the Law made atonement provision for his chosen people Israel, did he not? First he gave them Ark of the Covenant. Then the Tent of Meeting. Then a brick 'n' mortal temple. The holy days of observance. Then the priesthood, etc., etc. He provided all of these for Israel's eternal benefit and well being. How did all of that work out for most of Israel? It didn't, did it? Why? Because they had no faith!

As far as Adam being an OT saint while simultaneously being only contrasted with Christ (not to mention all the other negatives stated previously) this would all be unprecedented in scripture. And when something is unprecedented that clearly goes against the grain of all scripture, I go with the grain in accordance with hermeneutical principles I use to interpret scripture.

Does it make a difference to you that Adam is listed in the genealogy of Jesus?

 

[Rufus]

Scripture says she was deceived, which is not exactly a glowing report of her character.

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

What's even worse is the Word tells us Adam was not deceived which means Adam knew eating of the tree was a sin before he did it. That of course is worse than what Eve did but does not absolve her of wrong doing.

Adam was not deceived by the devil! In fact, when Adam told God that the woman "you gave me" gave me the fruit and I ate of, he didn't even claim that Eve deceived him! This is precisely what makes Adam's sin most egregious, as you have rightly suggested: Adam sinned with his eyes wide open! It's no wonder his sin is classified as transgression! The best Adam could do with his answer to God is to insinuate to God's face that He had given him a defective woman, thereby not owning his transgression! Adam's sin, ultimately, was the sin of PRIDE -- and not a result of deception -- unless you include self-deception. Doesn't scripture teach that pride goeth before destruction and haughty spirit before a fall (Prov 16:18)? Adam has much in common with his spriritual daddy; for pride was the evil one's downfall, too, wasn't it? Adam's sin is that he wanted to be just like God (have His knowledge of Good and Evil). The devil, too, wanted to be just like God, as you might recall.

There are other ways, too, that Adam is like Satan. You might recall from my argument that Adam, like Satan, had empirical proof of God's existence; whereas Eve did not. But here's another way Adam is like his spiritual father the Serpent: You might also recall that Satan was a being of unusual and striking beauty. Apparently, no created being compared to him. Adam, too, had the distinction as being endowed with unusually high intelligence, evidently born with a great deal of working knowlege of this world. For one thing, he was this world's first scientist, for God initially tasked him with the job of classifying and naming all the animals. In today's world that discipline of science is called Taxonomy. Adam was also tasked with the awesome, mind-blowing responsibility of cultivating the Garden so that it would extend throughout the entire earth. That science discipline, of course, is known today as Horticulture.

Finally, there is a fourth way Adam is like the devil! It is said in holy writ that the devil holds the power of death (Heb 2:14). Yet, at the same time scripture teaches that death came upon the whole world by one man's transgression (Rom 5:12-20). Talk about "like father like son"!

In closing, not only is Adam contrasted with Christ, and not only does scripture speak of him in negative terms in other respects, but now we find that he has quite a bit in common with the Serpent of old; for they both shared the same very dubious qualities or distinctions. Adam: Very much unlike Christ and very much like his spiritual father. Who can reasonbably think this is a winning [spiritual] Xacta!?

As far as Eve not being of stellar character...isn't that was sin does to one's character -- tarnish it?

But thanks for your input. I now have more ammo to add to my argment to make it even stronger.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Adam was not deceived by the devil!

I just said that by posting this scripture:

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

This tells us Eve was deceived but Adam was not deceived.

This does not mean Eve is cleared of any wrong doing.

There are other ways, too, that Adam is like Satan

God did not create Adam to be anything like satan.

Adam only went bad after he sinned.

Before he sinned he was pleasing to the Lord and nothing in scripture indicates otherwise.

 

[selahsays]

Correct belief is a work.

It is Jesus who did the work. He is the One who took the stripes so that we could be healed. ~selah

 

[Rufus]

Does it make a difference to you that Adam is listed in the genealogy of Jesus?

No, not at all. For Luke's genealogy traces back to Adam to prove Christ's divinity. But notice who the First Adam "descended" from? Did not God create all things though the Last Adam? And besides, when God created him...he created him "very good". Also, by the same token, Gen 3:15 tells us that AFTER the fall Christ would descend from the godly seed of the woman.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

It is Jesus who did the work. He is the One who took the stripes so that we could be healed. ~selah

Yes, and then WE had to choose to accept Him as our Lord and Savior which He provides the power for us to do IF we make the decision to

 

[Cameron143]

No, not at all. For Luke's genealogy traces back to Adam to prove Christ's divinity. But notice who the First Adam "descended" from? Did not God create all things though the Last Adam? And besides, when God created him...he created him "very good". Also, by the same token, Gen 3:15 tells us that AFTER the fall Christ would descend from the godly seed of the woman.

Appreciate you taking the time to explain your position.

 

[selahsays]

Yes, and then WE had to choose to accept Him as our Lord and Savior which He provides the power for us to do IF we make the decision to

…but that’s not a work.

 

[Rufus]

I just said that by posting this scripture:

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

This tells us Eve was deceived but Adam was not deceived.

This does not mean Eve is cleared of any wrong doing.





God did not create Adam to be anything like satan.

Adam only went bad after he sinned.

Before he sinned he was pleasing to the Lord and nothing in scripture indicates otherwise.

I did not even remotely hint what you say above. But the fact remains that Adam is a type of Satan by comparison and a type of Christ by contrast. So...feel free to spin that anyway you want. And if you can find any saint in Scriptue that comes even remotely close to possessing the negative characterstics of Adam, be sure to post your findings here. I always stand to be corrected.

Eve was most certainly cleared of wrong doing just by what Gen 3:15 says. Her Reconciliation to God is impled when God explicitly made her Satan's enemy and vice versa. Aren't we Christians enemies of Satan!? Isn't Satan the enemy of all God's people? Can anyone be an enemy of God and of Satan at the same time and in the same sense!?

 

[Stan_the_Man]

…but that’s not a work.

Sure it is, Jesus tells us it is in John 6:28,29 among other verses


John 6:28,29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 7:16-21
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 2:6-11
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:14-17
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Psalms 62:12
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou give to every man according to his work.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 1:21,22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

 

[Rufus]

Appreciate you taking the time to explain your position.

Not all. I hope something I wrote helps. My inductive study on matter of the Fall greatly strengthened my faith in the Doctrines of Grace. I see God's unconditional election of Eve and his rejection of Adam. It's the only reasonable conclusion I could reach.

 

[Inquisitor]

My Analogy of the New Birth is more than a plausible explanation. You look at this man's salvation experience as though God got involved with him only at the last minute when the fellow cried out to him. I look at the bigger picture because I believe in the providence of God. As stated earlier, God was very likely working in this man's life for months or years to bring him into the very set of desperate circumstances in which he found himself. Romans 8 teaches that God foreknew this man in eternity, and because he did, he called him [in temporal reality], and because he called him he justified him [in time and space], and because he justified him, he also glorified him ( which will happen at the resurrection). How can God NOT be intimately and lovingly involved in the lives of all those whom he has predestined to save in eternity? Do you think God only decrees the ends and not the means, as well? What good would it be to decree an end in eternity if the means were left to "random chance" in temporal reality? If every decision of the roll of the dice is determined by the Sovereign Lord (Prov 16:33), then how much more are the lives of God's chosen ones determined by Him (Prov 16:9)?

What the scripture may be declaring is God's sovereignty regarding the predestination of two groups. Not so much a predestination of any individual to salvation.

We know from the letter to the Romans that the Jews were hardened and the Gentiles were grafted in.

These two different groups of people seem to be the subject of Paul's narration in Romans.

 

[selahsays]

Sure it is, Jesus tells us it is in John 6:28,29 among other verses



John 6:28,29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 7:16-21
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 2:6-11
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:14-17
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Psalms 62:12
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou give to every man according to his work.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 1:21,22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

—What I mean is that since we are saved only by His grace and not by our works, belief is a work of God.
John 6:28,29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

I did not even remotely hint what you say above.

You said:
Adam was not deceived by the devil!

Then I said:
I just said that by posting this scripture:

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I'm not spinning anything.

Just going by what the Word of God says.

Eve was most certainly cleared of wrong doing just by what Gen 3:15 says. Her Reconciliation to God is impled when God explicitly made her Satan's enemy and vice versa. Aren't we Christians enemies of Satan!? Isn't Satan the enemy of all God's people? Can anyone be an enemy of God and of Satan at the same time and in the same sense!?

Well, nowadays being deceived is not an excuse to live in sin as some suppose.

God continued to talk with Adam and Eve and provide for them after the fall. Adam and Eve knew of God’s promise that He would provide a Savior (Genesis 3:15). God made garments of skin for Adam and Eve after the fall (Genesis 3:21).

Many scholars understand this as the first animal sacrifice, foreshadowing the eventual death of Christ on the cross for the sins of the world. Putting these facts together, it would seem that Adam and Eve were saved and did indeed go to heaven / paradise when they died.

So Jesus' work on the Cross was also able to be applied to old Testament saints as well as us in modern times as we have ALL sinned against the Lord willing and knowingly after having gotten saved.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

—What I mean is that since we are saved only by His grace and not by our works, belief is a work of God.
John 6:28,29

God doing good works thru is, is part of our salvation as this is baring fruit.

Jesus tells us in John 15 that those who do not abide in Him baring fruit are cut off.