Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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Okay, what does "calling on the name of the Lord" actually intel, and then is it something we "do"? Do you just mean I verbally say "Jesus come to me" and I'm good? What exactly happens when I am born again? Anything real?
How about this, what happens when I react to the alter call, I go up front as sincere as I feel, I repeat the prayer and am declared saved by the pastor, for good measure and to follow His word I even go to the bay and get baptized with the church. I do all these things, I feel like I mean it too, my spiritual leaders have told me I'm saved, and for the record, I feel they were sincere as well, I don't believe anyone involved here was trying to deceive or be deceived, I believe now that we all went in with the very best intentions.
My point to this thought experiment using a personal testimony of mine is asking what you mean exactly when you say "I believe everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved". I get it, I understand what scripture says and how this is true, but I also understand how this can be misunderstood on a fundamental level as well. This was one of the biggest misunderstandings I had when I thought I was saved but wasn't, it was the Spirit. We cannot understand the things of the Spirit in truth until we are born again, it's just not possible. I just feel we should be careful and more specific when explaining what we mean when we say these things. So when we say "I believe everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved", I believe we should highlight how HUGE "calling on His name" truly is. Same with "believe", to "believe in Jesus" is not easily articulated and harder to just brush by with a slogan.
So I'm sorry if I am coming off aggressive or like I'm trying to nitpick small things and just argue, I just find this subject very important personally due to amount of time I spent thinking I was saved when I wasn't. So I would just like a bit more depth and understanding of what exactly you mean by- "I believe everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved".
How about this, what happens when I react to the alter call, I go up front as sincere as I feel, I repeat the prayer and am declared saved by the pastor, for good measure and to follow His word I even go to the bay and get baptized with the church. I do all these things, I feel like I mean it too, my spiritual leaders have told me I'm saved, and for the record, I feel they were sincere as well, I don't believe anyone involved here was trying to deceive or be deceived, I believe now that we all went in with the very best intentions.
My point to this thought experiment using a personal testimony of mine is asking what you mean exactly when you say "I believe everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved". I get it, I understand what scripture says and how this is true, but I also understand how this can be misunderstood on a fundamental level as well. This was one of the biggest misunderstandings I had when I thought I was saved but wasn't, it was the Spirit. We cannot understand the things of the Spirit in truth until we are born again, it's just not possible. I just feel we should be careful and more specific when explaining what we mean when we say these things. So when we say "I believe everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved", I believe we should highlight how HUGE "calling on His name" truly is. Same with "believe", to "believe in Jesus" is not easily articulated and harder to just brush by with a slogan.
So I'm sorry if I am coming off aggressive or like I'm trying to nitpick small things and just argue, I just find this subject very important personally due to amount of time I spent thinking I was saved when I wasn't. So I would just like a bit more depth and understanding of what exactly you mean by- "I believe everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved".
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A levite, who was living in Judah, is a jew.
Just like a benjamite, who was living in Judah, was called a Jew.
They were called Jews because they lived in the land of Judea (hence the name jew) for the same reason a person who lives in the united states is called an american. because they live in North America
Just like a benjamite, who was living in Judah, was called a Jew.
They were called Jews because they lived in the land of Judea (hence the name jew) for the same reason a person who lives in the united states is called an american. because they live in North America
Some people play silly games when they ask questions. So I responded with an answer that I knew wouldn't bring another silly question.
Calling on the name of the Lord has much deeper meaning than simply saying some prescribed words and is certainly worth investigating the depths of its meaning.
And I never take offense to any responses. I assume others are seeking my highest good, which is sometimes an endeavor here. But not in this case.
Calling on the name of the Lord has much deeper meaning than simply saying some prescribed words and is certainly worth investigating the depths of its meaning.
And I never take offense to any responses. I assume others are seeking my highest good, which is sometimes an endeavor here. But not in this case.
[QUOTE="HeIsHere, post: 5272515, member: 316104"]I have learned over the years this all stems from a misunderstanding of the word "dead" it does not mean they cannot respond.. dead means separated, that is how it was used back then.
Again, they make another assumption that at the "Fall" mankind his/her faculties are so damaged that we are all born morally incapable of being persuaded something is truth.[/quote]
You must have missed my post 3044 dealing with the Fall? In it I explained how Adam died spiritually. The fact that he died logically presupposes prior life, does it not? (Only the living can die, right?) So...you are right.. death is separation from God -- specifically, in the case of Adam, he lost the Spirit God had breathed into him at the very beginning when he became a "living soul" (Gen 2:7) . Adam's separation from God is graphically portrayed for us in Gen 3:22-24 when he drove the man out of Garden, and set cherubim in it to not allow Adam back in. God made it impossible for Adam to re-enter the Garden, which by the way was God's earthly temple at that time, whether you care to believe that or not. (But this would be a topic for another time.) Another graphic picture of what separation from God is can be seen in Jesus' account of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31). There was this great chasm that separated the rich man from Lazarus, and the rich man begged Abraham to send Lazarus to him to help ease his torment. But Abraham essentially told the rich man that it was impossible for anyone to cross that chasm.
When Adam lost the Holy Spirit, he lost his spiritual Life; hence he died. He became separated from his Creator, and there wasn't a thing Adam could do to reconnect to God. Adam's unceremonious eviction from the Garden is a vivid picture of God making it impossible for him to reconnect to Life (i.e. eat from the Tree of Life). And so it has always been with all of Adam's progeny, save for the Last Adam, of course -- who, as an embryo in Mary's womb, was filled with the Spirit of the Living God. It is literally impossible for us to reconnect with God. We do not have that kind of [will] power. The only way any of us can reconnect is by God's sovereign power (i.e. his Grace!). It's impossible for innately evil beings to make good choices! (Can good trees bear bad fruit or bad trees bear good fruit?) Our choices are as limited by our sinful nature as God's choices are limited by his holy nature. And I have often cited or quoted supporting scriptures to this effect (Jer 13:23; Rom 3:9-18; 8:8, etc.) And even more recently in post 3331 by quoting Jn 8:23-47 wherein Jesus told the Pharisees, among other things, that they were unable to hear what he had to say. And he went on to say that the reason they couldn't hear was because they did not belong to God! Rather, they were of the serpents's seed!
Separation from God is a spiritually incurable condition by any human physician. Only the Great Physician can raise anyone from the dead! Only He can bridge the gap between us and the "tree of life" or between us and that great chasm in the afterlife. The very fact that God uses the metaphor "death" to describe our spiritual condition should tell you something. When any of us die, do we have the [will] power to return to this life? To reverse our death!? Do our souls have the [will] power to rejoin themselves to our bodies? Then what would possess you to think that we have the power to reconnect to God? Why would you think that what God has separated, we can undo his sovereign decree by choosing to reconnect ourselves to Him? When God closes a door, who can open it; Or who can close what He has opened (Isa 22:22)? Or what God tears down can be rebuilt, or the man He has imprisoned can be released (Job 12:14)?
See Rom 9:17-18. God has a good purpose for all that he does. It seems you have forgotten that God doesn't think or act as we mere mortals do (Isa 55:8-9).
Again, they make another assumption that at the "Fall" mankind his/her faculties are so damaged that we are all born morally incapable of being persuaded something is truth.[/quote]
You must have missed my post 3044 dealing with the Fall? In it I explained how Adam died spiritually. The fact that he died logically presupposes prior life, does it not? (Only the living can die, right?) So...you are right.. death is separation from God -- specifically, in the case of Adam, he lost the Spirit God had breathed into him at the very beginning when he became a "living soul" (Gen 2:7) . Adam's separation from God is graphically portrayed for us in Gen 3:22-24 when he drove the man out of Garden, and set cherubim in it to not allow Adam back in. God made it impossible for Adam to re-enter the Garden, which by the way was God's earthly temple at that time, whether you care to believe that or not. (But this would be a topic for another time.) Another graphic picture of what separation from God is can be seen in Jesus' account of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31). There was this great chasm that separated the rich man from Lazarus, and the rich man begged Abraham to send Lazarus to him to help ease his torment. But Abraham essentially told the rich man that it was impossible for anyone to cross that chasm.
When Adam lost the Holy Spirit, he lost his spiritual Life; hence he died. He became separated from his Creator, and there wasn't a thing Adam could do to reconnect to God. Adam's unceremonious eviction from the Garden is a vivid picture of God making it impossible for him to reconnect to Life (i.e. eat from the Tree of Life). And so it has always been with all of Adam's progeny, save for the Last Adam, of course -- who, as an embryo in Mary's womb, was filled with the Spirit of the Living God. It is literally impossible for us to reconnect with God. We do not have that kind of [will] power. The only way any of us can reconnect is by God's sovereign power (i.e. his Grace!). It's impossible for innately evil beings to make good choices! (Can good trees bear bad fruit or bad trees bear good fruit?) Our choices are as limited by our sinful nature as God's choices are limited by his holy nature. And I have often cited or quoted supporting scriptures to this effect (Jer 13:23; Rom 3:9-18; 8:8, etc.) And even more recently in post 3331 by quoting Jn 8:23-47 wherein Jesus told the Pharisees, among other things, that they were unable to hear what he had to say. And he went on to say that the reason they couldn't hear was because they did not belong to God! Rather, they were of the serpents's seed!
Separation from God is a spiritually incurable condition by any human physician. Only the Great Physician can raise anyone from the dead! Only He can bridge the gap between us and the "tree of life" or between us and that great chasm in the afterlife. The very fact that God uses the metaphor "death" to describe our spiritual condition should tell you something. When any of us die, do we have the [will] power to return to this life? To reverse our death!? Do our souls have the [will] power to rejoin themselves to our bodies? Then what would possess you to think that we have the power to reconnect to God? Why would you think that what God has separated, we can undo his sovereign decree by choosing to reconnect ourselves to Him? When God closes a door, who can open it; Or who can close what He has opened (Isa 22:22)? Or what God tears down can be rebuilt, or the man He has imprisoned can be released (Job 12:14)?
See Rom 9:17-18. God has a good purpose for all that he does. It seems you have forgotten that God doesn't think or act as we mere mortals do (Isa 55:8-9).
lol.
I will stick with reality.,
A jew is a person from the land of Judah, The land of Judah includes people from the tribe of Judah, The tribe of Benjamin, and the levite priests who were living amount them.
By the way, Paul was a benjamite, and a Hebrew
Philippians 3:5
4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
But he called himself a Jew
Galatians 2:15
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
But he also considered himself an Israelite
Romans 11:1
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
I will stick with reality.,
A jew is a person from the land of Judah, The land of Judah includes people from the tribe of Judah, The tribe of Benjamin, and the levite priests who were living amount them.
By the way, Paul was a benjamite, and a Hebrew
Philippians 3:5
4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
But he called himself a Jew
Galatians 2:15
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
But he also considered himself an Israelite
Romans 11:1
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
And this is why Jesus even rebuked his own disciples for being "dull of hearing" (Mat 13:15) -- because they "pretended" to not undertand?
And is that what you think Paul is teaching in Rom 3:11 -- that humanity pretends they don't understand?
Have you never read 2Cor 4:4? Or does Satan just pretend to blind the minds of unbelievers?
And is that what you think Paul is teaching in Rom 3:11 -- that humanity pretends they don't understand?
Have you never read 2Cor 4:4? Or does Satan just pretend to blind the minds of unbelievers?
Once again, Good post! - Very thoughtful on your part....
I hear what you are saying about the alter call – and calling on the name of the Lord.
I honestly believe that churches which do this may be doing more harm than good. This is not to say that God cannot use an alter call to bring someone to faith. However, more often than not, this is not the result.
Does this happen because you are told “IF YOU DO THIS – THEN YOU WILL BE SAVED”?
Like Cameron143 says, this question probably deserves a topic of its own.
I'm just happy that you realized that the call wasn't enough!
I hear what you are saying about the alter call – and calling on the name of the Lord.
I honestly believe that churches which do this may be doing more harm than good. This is not to say that God cannot use an alter call to bring someone to faith. However, more often than not, this is not the result.
Does this happen because you are told “IF YOU DO THIS – THEN YOU WILL BE SAVED”?
Like Cameron143 says, this question probably deserves a topic of its own.
I'm just happy that you realized that the call wasn't enough!
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[QUOTE="FollowerofShiloh, post: 5272343, member: 328825"]The Gentiles and Jews ""are not the same"" until they get saved.
So before salvation they are still JEW and Gentile.
Show me in the Bible where the GENTILES cannot hear, the GENTILES?[/QUOTE]
So Jews and Gentiles are born with different natures? That must have been very confusing for Jesus since he had Gentile blood in him. Jesus must have possessed three natures!
So before salvation they are still JEW and Gentile.
Show me in the Bible where the GENTILES cannot hear, the GENTILES?[/QUOTE]
So Jews and Gentiles are born with different natures? That must have been very confusing for Jesus since he had Gentile blood in him. Jesus must have possessed three natures!