"TO DAY" alternative re: Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

[cv5]

Remember.....commas are not in the Greek. They have been added by scribes/commentators.

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

IMO should read:

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee THIS DAY (COMMA SHOULD BE HERE?)***,*** G4594 shalt thou be with me in paradise.

(In other words, this day you are saved or today is the day.....you are eternally saved!)

The KJV translates Strong's G4594 in the following manner: this day (22x), to day (18x), this (with G3588) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. this (very) day)
2. what has happened today

BTW, placing the comma in the proper location clears up a LOT of confusion.

 

[Subhumanoidal]

The wording being changed did nothing for me.
Neither did the extra comma.
And the bold/underline/size increase actually makes it harder to read.
But you're also using KJV, which I don't care for anyways.
It all felt superfluous.

 

[cv5]

The wording being changed did nothing for me.
Neither did the extra comma.
And the bold/underline/size increase actually makes it harder to read.
But you're also using KJV, which I don't care for anyways.
It all felt superfluous.

The implications are quite remarkable depending upon the placement of the comma. Obviously. But that would only be useful to a serious Bible student.

So I will grant you that.

 

[7thMoon]

The implications are quite remarkable depending upon the placement of the comma. Obviously. But that would only be useful to a serious Bible student.

So I will grant you that.

The placement of a comma is worthless in scripta continua.

 

[cv5]

The placement of a comma is worthless in scripta continua.

Certainly. Yet the English translation demands a comma. Somewhere.
Again the implications as to where are remarkable.

But for only those paying strict attention.

 

[MarcoftheTruth]

Remember.....commas are not in the Greek. They have been added by scribes/commentators.

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

IMO should read:

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee THIS DAY (COMMA SHOULD BE HERE?)***,*** G4594 shalt thou be with me in paradise.

(In other words, this day you are saved or today is the day.....you are eternally saved!)

The KJV translates Strong's G4594 in the following manner: this day (22x), to day (18x), this (with G3588) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. this (very) day)
2. what has happened today

BTW, placing the comma in the proper location clears up a LOT of confusion.

The Throne Room of Heaven

1After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

2Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. 4Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads. 5And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. 8The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:

“Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”

9Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

11“You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.” Rev 4:1-11

Worthy Is the Lamb

9And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.” Rev 5:9-10

 

[7thMoon]

Certainly. Yet the English translation demands a comma. Somewhere.
Again the implications as to where are remarkable.

But for only those paying strict attention.

Today is the object in the Greek. I tell the day to you how it is still Thursday, for example. Greek doesn't have adverbial genitive.

 

[Mem]

Today is the object in the Greek. I tell the day to you how it is still Thursday, for example. Greek doesn't have adverbial genitive.

Is it the object of the verb "tell" or "will be"?

 

[Mem]

The Strong's explanation shows the possible meaning as "now", and this would fit wherever the comma is inserted, either way, whether it is, "Truly I tell you now, will be with me in Paradise" or "Truly I tell you, now you will be with me in Paradise." And also, even if two commas are used, "Truly I tell you, now, you will be with me in Paradise."

 

[7thMoon]

The Strong's explanation shows the possible meaning as "now", and this would fit wherever the comma is inserted, either way, whether it is, "Truly I tell you now, will be with me in Paradise" or "Truly I tell you, now you will be with me in Paradise." And also, even if two commas are used, "Truly I tell you, now, you will be with me in Paradise."

I thought it meant today, but depending on the voice of the verb, it could imply now. It still means this day itself. It is in the psalm that words, "today I have begotten thee."

But the passive voice is used there. I wonder if noun is a neuter, i.e. dual case noun.

 

[Mem]

I thought it meant today, but depending on the voice of the verb, it could imply now. It still means this day itself. It is in the psalm that words, "today I have begotten thee."

But the passive voice is used there. I wonder if noun is a neuter, i.e. dual case noun.

Here is a paste of the Strong's Lexicon entry for "semeron":

today
σήμερον (sēmeron)
Adverb
Strong's Greek 4594: Today, now. Neuter of a presumed compound of the article ho and hemera; on the day; generally, now.

 

[7thMoon]

Here is a paste of the Strong's Lexicon entry for "semeron":

today
σήμερον (sēmeron)
Adverb
Strong's Greek 4594: Today, now. Neuter of a presumed compound of the article ho and hemera; on the day; generally, now.

I need, erm, stronger information, but there is a simple version of this word ήμερα which is not about specific days. I wonder what the σ-- sigma does to the word.

Perhaps because of what happened in the day is part of the context.

 

[Mem]

I need, erm, stronger information, but there is a simple version of this word ήμερα which is not about specific days. I wonder what the σ-- sigma does to the word.

Perhaps because of what happened in the day is part of the context.

We have a resident Greek scholar, @Angela53510, that might shine be more helpful with such a study.


I've been contemplating on the creation of man in God's image and whether he was actually made perfect or created missing something that became available to him 'this day itself.' I wrote some on it so I could "follow along" as I was thinking, below:

Meditating on (not in the sense of "ohhmm" but just thinking about) God's creation of man, and considering that God created man in His image, I wondered exactly how "perfect" man was. I mean, to be perfect, wouldn't man have been made another "God"? but man was only made in His image but was not made "Him"... so, it doesn't seem right to me to think that man was perfect at anytime... God breathed the breath of life into man, yes, but that didn't make man "Him." And so even if man were able to live forever, he still had the inherent tendency to ... droop? warp? bend? (I'm thinking of the candlesticks that Aaron was charged with 'setting right' daily, as they tended to perpetually 'turn away from the central servant candle' even as they perpetually burned). So then, the breath of life wasn't 'sufficient' for perfection as there is only One that is perfect, hence the need for 'something better,'' even all the way to the first man, and to the last. And this begs the question, "What was this need that man was not created with? but that Jesus made available to anyone that, asked? believed?...

 

[John146]

We have a resident Greek scholar, @Angela53510, that might shine be more helpful with such a study.


I've been contemplating on the creation of man in God's image and whether he was actually made perfect or created missing something that became available to him 'this day itself.' I wrote some on it so I could "follow along" as I was thinking, below:

Meditating on (not in the sense of "ohhmm" but just thinking about) God's creation of man, and considering that God created man in His image, I wondered exactly how "perfect" man was. I mean, to be perfect, wouldn't man have been made another "God"? but man was only made in His image but was not made "Him"... so, it doesn't seem right to me to think that man was perfect at anytime... God breathed the breath of life into man, yes, but that didn't make man "Him." And so even if man were able to live forever, he still had the inherent tendency to ... droop? warp? bend? (I'm thinking of the candlesticks that Aaron was charged with 'setting right' daily, as they tended to perpetually 'turn away from the central servant candle' even as they perpetually burned). So then, the breath of life wasn't 'sufficient' for perfection as there is only One that is perfect, hence the need for 'something better,'' even all the way to the first man, and to the last. And this begs the question, "What was this need that man was not created with? but that Jesus made available to anyone that, asked? believed?...

Perfect means nothing missing, whole. God made man whole, nothing missing. God did not make a whole god, but man. Everything God made was perfect. The animals he made were perfect. God did not make them incomplete.

 

[John146]

Remember.....commas are not in the Greek. They have been added by scribes/commentators.

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

IMO should read:

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee THIS DAY (COMMA SHOULD BE HERE?)***,*** G4594 shalt thou be with me in paradise.

(In other words, this day you are saved or today is the day.....you are eternally saved!)

The KJV translates Strong's G4594 in the following manner: this day (22x), to day (18x), this (with G3588) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. this (very) day)
2. what has happened today

BTW, placing the comma in the proper location clears up a LOT of confusion.

And that day, paradise was located in the heart of the earth, Abraham’s bosom. Jesus would join the thief there that day as he preached the gospel to them that were dead and would set them free and deliver them to the third heaven three days later.

 

[cv5]

The Strong's explanation shows the possible meaning as "now", and this would fit wherever the comma is inserted, either way, whether it is, "Truly I tell you now, will be with me in Paradise" or "Truly I tell you, now you will be with me in Paradise." And also, even if two commas are used, "Truly I tell you, now, you will be with me in Paradise."

Yes, agree, "now" is a better translation. Perfectly fitting.

Every Bible version that I read seems to have the comma in the wrong place.

 

[cv5]

We have a resident Greek scholar, @Angela53510, that might shine be more helpful with such a study.


I've been contemplating on the creation of man in God's image and whether he was actually made perfect or created missing something that became available to him 'this day itself.' I wrote some on it so I could "follow along" as I was thinking, below:

Meditating on (not in the sense of "ohhmm" but just thinking about) God's creation of man, and considering that God created man in His image, I wondered exactly how "perfect" man was. I mean, to be perfect, wouldn't man have been made another "God"? but man was only made in His image but was not made "Him"... so, it doesn't seem right to me to think that man was perfect at anytime... God breathed the breath of life into man, yes, but that didn't make man "Him." And so even if man were able to live forever, he still had the inherent tendency to ... droop? warp? bend? (I'm thinking of the candlesticks that Aaron was charged with 'setting right' daily, as they tended to perpetually 'turn away from the central servant candle' even as they perpetually burned). So then, the breath of life wasn't 'sufficient' for perfection as there is only One that is perfect, hence the need for 'something better,'' even all the way to the first man, and to the last. And this begs the question, "What was this need that man was not created with? but that Jesus made available to anyone that, asked? believed?...

Well.....we do know that pre-fall Adam outwitted (yes, "out-thunk" out-maneuvered, in effect defeated yet future thru Christ) Satan, the wisest most powerful being in all of creation.

Satan was prince of the former creation, was dethroned because of his rebellion, and assaulted and attacked the new king of the newly created world Adam. Satan could not deceive/defeat Adam, so he focused his attacks on the Woman (she was not yet named Eve until after the fall). Satan correctly deduced that this would be the best angle of attack. But the ultimate aim of Satan was to dethrone Adam and destroy his seed.

So Adam, whatever his state, was vastly more intellectually/spiritually powerful that we give him credit for.

1/3 of the angels, doubtless including powerful Seraphim and Cherubim and other high-ranking beings, were deceived.
Adam was not deceived. Adam sinned of his own free will.

 

[stilllearning]

Remember.....commas are not in the Greek. They have been added by scribes/commentators.

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

IMO should read:

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee THIS DAY (COMMA SHOULD BE HERE?)***,*** G4594 shalt thou be with me in paradise.

(In other words, this day you are saved or today is the day.....you are eternally saved!)

The KJV translates Strong's G4594 in the following manner: this day (22x), to day (18x), this (with G3588) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. this (very) day)
2. what has happened today

BTW, placing the comma in the proper location clears up a LOT of confusion.

Agreed that commas are not in the Greek as far as the bible. However, the comma was invented by the Greeks. It is unique in that unlike other punctuation it has not evolved. In other words it has served the same purpose since it was invented. Aristophanes of Byzantium in the 3rd century B.C is who history records had invented it. His original was not like the one we would recognize today. His had one to three dots which each dot showing how it was being used.

My speculation and purely speculation as I have not found time to see if my theory is correct. However, it was invented because it was noticed that when folks were reading aloud that the way it should be read was not being adhered to. My theory is we know that during this classical era that Alexander the Great, Ptolemy, Seleucus, Cassander, and Lysimachus they Hellenized the conquered world.

So I speculate as they were doing so, Hellenizing the world that the comma came about in this era for the reasons stated the Greek language was not being properly read.

Not wanting to get into a long breakdown of scribes and scholars from 100-300 AD and there transcribing. I will say when you do research into modern days scholars specifically on the punctuation in the bible the majority of them find that it is correct. Of the various reasons that each modern scholar will give. The one cited the most is that those back then during that time period that transcribed were native speakers of Greek. As Greek was still a first language and common language for that part of the world until around 300 A.D.

So anyway this is what I found in my research about the comma and biblical punctuation and the history. Would encourage though folks just do a research of their own as it is more entailed and I am just going off of memory of what I read. As well as I am no English major so when they get detailed on grammar and punctuation I had no clue what they were talking about......LOL I just always consider it an accomplishment if folks somewhat understand what I am saying when it comes to use of grammar and punctuation....LOL

 

[cv5]

Agreed that commas are not in the Greek as far as the bible. However, the comma was invented by the Greeks. It is unique in that unlike other punctuation it has not evolved. In other words it has served the same purpose since it was invented. Aristophanes of Byzantium in the 3rd century B.C is who history records had invented it. His original was not like the one we would recognize today. His had one to three dots which each dot showing how it was being used.

My speculation and purely speculation as I have not found time to see if my theory is correct. However, it was invented because it was noticed that when folks were reading aloud that the way it should be read was not being adhered to. My theory is we know that during this classical era that Alexander the Great, Ptolemy, Seleucus, Cassander, and Lysimachus they Hellenized the conquered world.

So I speculate as they were doing so, Hellenizing the world that the comma came about in this era for the reasons stated the Greek language was not being properly read.

Not wanting to get into a long breakdown of scribes and scholars from 100-300 AD and there transcribing. I will say when you do research into modern days scholars specifically on the punctuation in the bible the majority of them find that it is correct. Of the various reasons that each modern scholar will give. The one cited the most is that those back then during that time period that transcribed were native speakers of Greek. As Greek was still a first language and common language for that part of the world until around 300 A.D.

So anyway this is what I found in my research about the comma and biblical punctuation and the history. Would encourage though folks just do a research of their own as it is more entailed and I am just going off of memory of what I read. As well as I am no English major so when they get detailed on grammar and punctuation I had no clue what they were talking about......LOL I just always consider it an accomplishment if folks somewhat understand what I am saying when it comes to use of grammar and punctuation....LOL

Thanks for your valuable insights. I find them very useful. BTW.....I am about as far from an expert in Greek as is possible just to let everyone know.

One other point that some may find interesting:

"Verily" is equivalent to our "Amen". And every time Jesus uses this term, it is a declaration of His identity as eternal God YHVH, His infallibility and infinity. This the Pharisees and leaders fully understood......."teaching with authority and not as the scribes".

The KJV translates Strong's G281 in the following manner: verily (101x), amen (51x).

Transliteration
amēn (Key)
Pronunciation
am-ane'

 

[Mem]

And that day, paradise was located in the heart of the earth, Abraham’s bosom. Jesus would join the thief there that day as he preached the gospel to them that were dead and would set them free and deliver them to the third heaven three days later.

Well.....we do know that pre-fall Adam outwitted (yes, "out-thunk" out-maneuvered, in effect defeated yet future thru Christ) Satan, the wisest most powerful being in all of creation.

Satan was prince of the former creation, was dethroned because of his rebellion, and assaulted and attacked the new king of the newly created world Adam. Satan could not deceive/defeat Adam, so he focused his attacks on the Woman (she was not yet named Eve until after the fall). Satan correctly deduced that this would be the best angle of attack. But the ultimate aim of Satan was to dethrone Adam and destroy his seed.

So Adam, whatever his state, was vastly more intellectually/spiritually powerful that we give him credit for.

1/3 of the angels, doubtless including powerful Seraphim and Cherubim and other high-ranking beings, were deceived.
Adam was not deceived. Adam sinned of his own free will.

I suspect a bias here, with regard to Adam, js.