Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Niki7]

You know Cameron, this idea of yours that you do not want to use words often found in the Calvinistic argument for that particular interpretation is not working.

You can do what you want of course, and I know you said you have come to your own conclusions regarding interpretation of the 'elect' and that's all fine and good, but you are coming across as vague and repetitive.

The rest of us, on either side of the discussion (debate/whatever) are up front but it seems you keep trying to come in through the back door and honestly, I don't think it's working.

 

[MerSee]

Not functionally. But the individual doesn't stop being the temple of God. They lose the blessing of God and are subject to chastening, but they don't lose their salvation.

Do you believe only the elect can ever be born-again?

 

[Cameron143]

So kindly explain what the 'more' above in your post reflects as to your thoughts on the matter

If my posts are just going to upset you, perhaps we should just disengage. This isn't my purpose. But if you want to begin to understand what I believe, read post #3284. My argument begins with what actually is the estate of fallen, unregenerate man, because what one believes about this is one of 2 major things that influences people's perspective.
If you read the post, I would be interested in your response.

 

[Cameron143]

Do you believe only the elect can ever be born-again?

I believe everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

An individual doesn't produce faith.

Your right.

Someone shows their trustworthiness to you. and you chose to trust that person.

Hearing comes from God and yields faith.

It may or it may not. If hearing from God produced faith. The pharisees would never have crucified Christ. Because they heard and knew the OT verbatim.

Thus, we believe because we've been acted upon by the Spirit of God employing the word of God.

I never said otherwise.

So no, stopping one's ears and stoning the preacher wouldn't be evidence that God was at work.

So God was not at work with Israel when they left Egypt? and they closed their ears to him? Really????

Repenting and getting baptized would be.

Agree, But many are called. few are chosen.. Not everyone called will listen,, Many will close their ears.. Id does not negate the power of God that they rejected his word..

When the Bible speaks of faith coming through hearing, do you believe the individual has done this or God? Do you believe biblical hearing involves simply hearing audibly or engenders the impartation of understanding to the hearer?

You stuck in calvin talk. Unless you drop your calvin screening and filter. you will continue to ask these questions that literally make no sense.

 

[Niki7]

If my posts are just going to upset you, perhaps we should just disengage. This isn't my purpose. But if you want to begin to understand what I believe, read post #3284. My argument begins with what actually is the estate of fallen, unregenerate man, because what one believes about this is one of 2 major things that influences people's perspective.
If you read the post, I would be interested in your response.

You disagree with others often, so does that mean you are upset? Maybe you should just disengage.

That's what you do Cameron. That does not make for an honest discussion.

If I am upset over what is being presented here, I will leave off and either decide to quit the thread or come back when I am not upset.

As it is, what is your motive in trying to represent me as upset? That seems to be almost passive aggressive stuff going on there IMO

There has always been something spiritual about man, but not Spiritual. In the Fall, all aspects of man were corrupted including his spirit. His spirit remains intact. It simply doesn't work as God originally made it. God made man good. He is no longer good. Since this is the estate we inherit from Adam, we are no longer good, and this is the basis for Paul writing in Romans 3 that none are good; not even one.
Man's nature after the Fall was still human.

I believe the Bible is clear that we are a tripartite being and made in the image of God as per Genesis and NT passages.

I find the highlighted above kind of iffy. The human spirit is still operating but apart from God, if the person is not a believer (believer meaning a believer in Christ, His work, God and the Holy Spirit as we find in scripture and not how humans try to get God down to their level or decide portions of the NT are not for today)

I agree that mankind is a fallen race and I would add filled with and persuaded by the demonic. The devil is the god of this world after all.

I do not find a noteworthy disagreement in what you state.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That's very unlikely.

The wage of sin is death

as long as the wage of sin is in acted, the person is dead.

a person can not be made alive until that wage is removed, thats called justification.

Did you read my New Birth analogy in 1665? (That's the post number, not the year I wrote it.)

here is post 1665

One needs to Hear the Gospel before Regeneration begins. Faith happens before Regeneration.

did you get the number wrong?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That was exactly my point. Our desire must be changed, then we will believe!

Again, this is in error

My desire was not to please God. it was to get saved..

 

[Niki7]

It may or it may not. If hearing from God produced faith. The pharisees would never have crucified Christ. Because they heard and knew the OT verbatim.

As the Bible clearly indicates that hearing (the word, inspired word of God) produces faith, that would indicate that people can and do walk away and choose to respond negatively. IMO, we have thousands if not millions of people calling themself Christian today that would probably crucify Jesus.

We have to understand that as I already illustrated, from scripture, the word of God is powerful and sharper than any 2 edged sword. Here is the verse again:

12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

So, it is the word itself that gets to the truth and JUDGES the heart (thoughts and attitudes...understanding that the Bible represents the heart as more than an organ in our bodies)

Jesus, the Word of God, brought out what was really in the pharisees and others by what He spoke. They hated Him because they could not hide from Him. That Word, exposed them for what they truly were...the biggest hypocrites of their day

 

[Niki7]

The wage of sin is death

as long as the wage of sin is in acted, the person is dead.

a person can not be made alive until that wage is removed, thats called justification.

You might find it interesting to know that the word used by Paul (Greek) is agoridzo, a technical term that was actually used to describe the marketplace and specifically the slave market.

Romans 7:14 We were sold under sin. So, Jesus has released us from the slave market (as it were) and bondage from the devil who runs that slave market. We are bought with a price I Corinthians 6:20 and in I Corinthians 7:23 we again find we are bought with a price (the blood of Christ) and told to keep ourselves from becoming slaves of men.

That's the study I am currently doing on the meaning of the words used by Paul to describe all that salvation entails.

 

[BillyBob]

The day man fell was the day our spirit surely died, taking our connection with God along with it. So this connection with God was severed for every man born of Adam, aka all of us save 1. Jesus our Christ was not born of Adam, He was born of His Spirit, into the world through the virgin Mary. The 2nd Adam, the Godman Jesus our Christ, born of the Spirit, born connected to God as we were created to be, sent to be the perfect sacrifice, the only ONE God could be "well pleased" with. The one with NO sin, with NO blemish, who laid down His life to glorify the Father in perfect obedience, to pay the price for sin once and for all, through Him.

Now the perfectly just and loving God can righteously forgive a filthy sinner like me by applying Jesus blood and death on the cross to me so that He can gift to me the ability to see myself in truth and to turn from it to Him. This resurrects my dead spirit, the dead spirit we are all born with, and it forever reconciles it to His Spirit, reconnecting us to Him as we were created to be. As we were before the fall. Make sense?

I like your explanation of how man came to be what he is today, and how it takes a perfectly sinless man (Christ) to restore us to what we once were. However, sin still clings to us. We're not there yet, but will become perfected on the day of Glorification.

Great job of posting

 

[PaulThomson]

Shut ears is the estate of fallen man. That's why understanding is necessary. Stopped their ears meant they didn't want to physically hear any more. That's why they cried out so as to drown out the sound. They were not given ears to hear or this would not have been their response.

You seem to have some different definition of "hear" from the dictionary. Why do you have a special definition of hearing when it is used in some texts of the Bible?

 

[PaulThomson]

I have no problem explaining my beliefs. Exactly what happens when hearing is given and hearts are pricked?

Where does the Bible ever say hearing is given?

 

[Cameron143]

You disagree with others often, so does that mean you are upset? Maybe you should just disengage.

That's what you do Cameron. That does not make for an honest discussion.

If I am upset over what is being presented here, I will leave off and either decide to quit the thread or come back when I am not upset.

As it is, what is your motive in trying to represent me as upset? That seems to be almost passive aggressive stuff going on there IMO



I believe the Bible is clear that we are a tripartite being and made in the image of God as per Genesis and NT passages.

I find the highlighted above kind of iffy. The human spirit is still operating but apart from God, if the person is not a believer (believer meaning a believer in Christ, His work, God and the Holy Spirit as we find in scripture and not how humans try to get God down to their level or decide portions of the NT are not for today)

I agree that mankind is a fallen race and I would add filled with and persuaded by the demonic. The devil is the god of this world after all.

I do not find a noteworthy disagreement in what you state.

When someone uses more emphatic language and smh, their emotional state has been raised. Perhaps upset doesn't include such things for you, but these things are indicative of a change in one's emotional estate. And this is never my intention.
You also seem to frame my remarks in the most contrary of ways rather than ask me to clarify.
When I do choose to disengage, it's never because I'm upset. I remain in discussions as long as that's how the Spirit is leading. Jesus did always what He saw th the Father doing. I try to do the same. Sometimes discussions reach a point where it is apparent that further engagement will not bear fruit. By disengaging, arguments and sinful behavior can be avoided.
As far as Spiritual vs spiritual, I was simply making a distinction between Adam pre and post fall. We all are spiritual because we have a spirit. This is why every culture has some form of religion. But Adam wasn't Spiritual in that he wasn't made a partaker of the divine in creation. This only occurred after the Fall and after God shed blood on his behalf.
Now, the issue I have been addressing is what is the estate of fallen, unregenerate man. In other words, what capacity in relationship to God does such a person possess. This is why I asked the question: does biblical hearing engender understanding or is it simply an audible hearing? What one believes the answer to be will inevitably shape their understanding.
In the post I referred you to, I stated that the corruption of sin changed Adam from what he was originally. He was made good, but in a fallen estate no longer is. And since we inherit this estate from Adam, I believe we aren't good and that this is the basis for Paul saying none are good, and further, why Jesus said only God is good.
The whole purpose was to lay a foundation for what exactly is the estate of fallen man...what is actually true of him.
And my apologies for superintending upon you any disposition falsely.

 

[Cameron143]

You seem to have some different definition of "hear" from the dictionary. Why do you have a special definition of hearing when it is used in some texts of the Bible?

Matthew 13:10-17.

 

[Cameron143]

Where does the Bible ever say hearing is given?

Matthew 13:10-17.

 

[PaulThomson]

Matthew 13:10-17.

Can you please, quote the text and highlight where it says that hearing is given?

 

[Rufus]

Wow you just put your spin and opinion on a WHOLE LOT and I honestly can't see how what you're saying here is connected to my comment at all. What I said is not complicated for those of us with our eyes open, not at all. Very simple and easy to understand.
What you are doing with what I said is completely unnecessary and over thinking/adding to/trying to push a viewpoint and I don't get why. What I said was simple and I stand by it, all the other stuff you're injecting I would never add myself.

Yes! In one sense the Gospel is easy to understand. So easy, children can understand it and respond positively. In another sense, though, I will never plumb the depths of God's grace or understand why he loved me in eternity and chose me to be one of his children.

I have repeatedly asked NRs (non-reformed) how any dead person can understand (hear) the gospel and respond positively to it. I get no reply. It seems that common sense alone would tell us that the dead would need be raised first so that they would have ears to hear and eyes to see. But, evidently, they don't take the death metaphor very seriously at all. Even Jesus told Nicodemus that he would need to be born from above, otherwise he would not be able to see (understand) the kingdom of God.

P.S. Welcome to the forum. Always glad to see like-minded people here.

 

[PaulThomson]

Matthew 13:10-17.

That does not explain why you have a different definition than dictionaries do of "hear" for some texts in the Bible.

 

[Rufus]

Can you please, quote the text and highlight where it says that hearing is given?

Here's the passage in its larger context.

Matt 13:10-17

10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

"'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'

16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
NIV