Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[FollowerofShiloh]

I don't know Hebrew! Do you continue to argue with me simply because you like my smile!

How can you make a definitive statement when you don't know what the original text even means?

 

[Rufus]

3 Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.

Your emphasis says everything about both groups here. You emphasize man's power (ability)to make contrary choices, but gloss right over the qualifying phrase "on the day of your power". The text is essentially saying that it will take nothing less than an alien power to move the people to offer themselves freely. It will take a power outside of those people! Your emphasis in the passage proves beyond any shadow of doubt what I have frequently maintained in this discussion: NR folks grossly overestimate man's power and simultaneously utterly underestimate God's and/or the absolute NECESSITY of his power. The exact opposite is true of Reformed people -- and rightfully so. You so easily gloss over the qualifying phrase as you do with the dismal state of man's spiritual condition: DEATH!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Your emphasis says everything about both groups here. You emphasize man's power (ability)to make contrary choices, but gloss right over the qualifying phrase "on the day of your power". The text is essentially saying that it will take nothing less than an alien power to move the people to offer themselves freely. It will take a power outside of those people! Your emphasis in the passage proves beyond any shadow of doubt what I have frequently maintained in this discussion: NR folks grossly overestimate man's power and simultaneously utterly underestimate God's and/or the absolute NECESSITY of his power. The exact opposite is true of Reformed people -- and rightfully so. You so easily gloss over the qualifying phrase as you do with the dismal state of man's spiritual condition: DEATH!

This is about the Messiah. You clearly have no clue about much of anything. But it shows those who Believe in the Messiah do it in FREE WILL.

 

[BillyBob]

The Hebrew word [verb] נדב naw-dab’ is a primitive root that means – to present spontaneously…primarily translated as an adverb “willingly” which indicates free motivation or voluntary decision. It is used 17 times in 15 verses throughout OT Scripture.

You avoided my question! Why would I WILL to do what I do not desire to do?

 

[Niki7]

Your emphasis says everything about both groups here. You emphasize man's power (ability)to make contrary choices, but gloss right over the qualifying phrase "on the day of your power". The text is essentially saying that it will take nothing less than an alien power to move the people to offer themselves freely. It will take a power outside of those people! Your emphasis in the passage proves beyond any shadow of doubt what I have frequently maintained in this discussion: NR folks grossly overestimate man's power and simultaneously utterly underestimate God's and/or the absolute NECESSITY of his power. The exact opposite is true of Reformed people -- and rightfully so. You so easily gloss over the qualifying phrase as you do with the dismal state of man's spiritual condition: DEATH!

Classic misapprehension of the word to attempt to make it say what it actually does not say.

The power being referred to is God as you seem to grasp, but acknowledgement of Him is FREELY given.

I do not really know Follower very well but I have to ask why you twist what the verse says? Follower said nothing at all about men's power.

How very disingenuous of you. The only thing you are consistently proving is your ability to gloss over things that do not align with your view or interpretation.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That's why I wrote it as I did " I can't water Baptize myself someone else does it to me"

No, but you have to go to do it. You do have to walk into the water. You do have to do quite a bit of work before someone baptizes you

Thats a lot different than you calling out To God and he immediately baptizing you into his death, into Christ, and into his body..

 

[Cameron143]

Pardon my interruption, but since you would believe in 'election' and God choosing, why would it matter? God will get them no matter what if they are part of the 'election'

I don't know how much you adhere to Calvinism, as you say you believe what you do through personal study, but isn't election a part of what you believe?

Everyone does not accept Christ and the Bible states that everyone does not accept Christ but nowhere are we told that God might pass you over if you are not an 'elect.'

And yes, count me in on the fundamental disagreement

I very much do believe that John 3:16 means what is says.

It matters because it is the way God prescribed salvation. It teaches us about God His ways. In short, it reveals more of God to us.
As far as election and predestination, everyone should believe in them. They are biblical doctrines. People may disagree what they mean, but they are clearly in the Bible. I choose not to use the terms in public discussions for the reasons stated earlier.
Do you believe understanding is given as a part of hearing?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No!
Repent, be Baptized, Receive the Holy Spirit said by Jesus is the "Process" that happens. Those are the "Works" being done by God when we Believe. Jesus even said in my 3 Verses I quoted of Him
16 Whoever believes
38 Whoever believes in me

We believe after WE HEAR the Gospel like Acts 10 shows.
And then Repentance, Baptism, receive Holy Spirit happen after we Believe.

But we can do none of that on our own and none of that happens from God until we first HEAR the Gospel.

Your adding a work

what your doing is no different than the jew trying to add circumcision.

 

[Cameron143]

Come on now! He did not say that.

Ask him and see what he says. He said that was only for Israel.

 

[Rufus]

First off, Genesis states we are made in the image of God. The word holy actually means to be separate....interesting that our sin(s) have separated us from God. But note that even though Adam and Eve disobeyed God, He STILL sought them out! They were not elect...or as it coming to appear, what Calvinists actually believe is more along the lines of SELECTION as opposed to election.

The problem is not the matter of choice. The problem is you and others here seeking to present the gospel through misapprehension of the word. Do you not know that a believer is seen by the Father as THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST?

You see, leaving out all that our salvation is, you get around scripture that states that all may come to salvation through faith and we are not yet what we shall be but are on the way to becoming as Christ as we shall be like Him when we finally see Him. Then we shall know even as we are known now.

We have the hope and assurance of salvation now. NOW

Why wouldn't God give choice when He has given that throughout scripture, INCLUDING the garden.

You might want to read my argument in 3044. You're only half right. One of our parents were not elect!

And God did give our first parents to the capacity to choose -- without any of the handicaps Adam's progeny have had since the Fall. Adam, representing the human race, plunged all mankind into the depths of the grave; for now we still have choice -- we still have freedom to choose according to our nature. Just like God chooses according his his nature.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That's exactly why I believe we must be changed prior to placing our trust in Him.

But we are still dead UNTIL we trust in him

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You avoided my question! Why would I WILL to do what I do not desire to do?

You won't do anything until you first hear the Gospel, then you will free will accept it.

 

[Rufus]

This is about the Messiah. You clearly have no clue about much of anything. But it shows those who Believe in the Messiah do it in FREE WILL.

So..."on the day of his power" has nothing to do with their "free will"? Okay then... You just can't help but exalt man, can you?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

No, but you have to go to do it. You do have to walk into the water. You do have to do quite a bit of work before someone baptizes you

Thats a lot different than you calling out To God and he immediately baptizing you into his death, into Christ, and into his body..

You only do it "after" you believe.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Your adding a work

what your doing is no different than the jew trying to add circumcision.

In your opinion since what I say makes no sense to you. But I have said nothing that implies we do anything but Accept what we hear when the Gospel is preached.

 

[Niki7]

It matters because it is the way God prescribed salvation. It teaches us about God His ways. In short, it reveals more of God to us.
As far as election and predestination, everyone should believe in them. They are biblical doctrines. People may disagree what they mean, but they are clearly in the Bible. I choose not to use the terms in public discussions for the reasons stated earlier.
Do you believe understanding is given as a part of hearing?

As noted, we disagree. God prescribed salvation through His Son. Election is not the major doctrine some think that it is. It is the understanding of certain words that has created an impossible situation for those that are created for hell as certain Calvinists espouse.

The actual major doctrine is salvation through Christ and that promise was given right after the sin that occurred in the garden.

I have no problem with you stating terms that you obviously believe but that is up to you of course.

I believe understanding is an ongoing process.....we have regeneration as the effect of salvation and not the impetus to salvation.

I believe what scripture states, that is actual HEARING (that is not just physical) comes through the word.

 

[Cameron143]

To be without God.

So why does someone need to be quickened? What does it mean to be without God?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

So..."on the day of his power" has nothing to do with their "free will"? Okay then... You just can't help but exalt man, can you?

So God is lying is what you are saying?

 

[Niki7]

You might want to read my argument in 3044. You're only half right. One of our parents were not elect!

And God did give our first parents to the capacity to choose -- without any of the handicaps Adam's progeny have had since the Fall. Adam, representing the human race, plunged all mankind into the depths of the grave; for now we still have choice -- we still have freedom to choose according to our nature. Just like God chooses according his his nature.

Or not cause I have pretty much heard all arguments similar to yours. I have books written by both Calvinists and non-Calvinists and have had many discussions and not just in this particular forum.

The only one who is 100% right is God Himself so no worries.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

So why does someone need to be quickened? What does it mean to be without God?

Everyone needs to hear the Gospel. Hearing causes the quickening. But the Jews are deaf right now so only the Gentiles can hear.