Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
- Thread starter MerSee
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I believe we are placed into the body of Christ in salvation. I don't really know what it means to receive the body of Christ.
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Niki7
Guest
Dead in trespasses and sin. Christ died in my place so that I might obtain salvation....which has a broader meaning than many will acknowledge or even possibly know about (depending on their biblical knowledge or lack of desire to study etc)
My sin is forgiven as is the sin of all who have acknowledged Christ as their Savior, sent by God Himself to deliver us from the hand of the devil
Regeneration does not occur before salvation. The Bible does not say that and your quip is simply the result of cooking in Calvin stew too long
John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
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Niki7
Guest
The fact you have not mentioned the 'buzz' words is the reason I brought up something about what you believe. That, because if a person is not familiar with your beliefs, they might misunderstand your questions or think you mean something other than what you do.
A number of people say they are not Calvinists, but the end result is that they support those doctrines.
Discussion is fine. I value what others believe or think but in the context of an appreciation of an actual discussion and not force feeding belief and congratulating anyone who thinks as they do while scoffing at those who do not. I think you know what I mean there
As I have stated, I do not label myself an Arminian; I don't hold to all of what that would entail and I have learned in my life that we can be wrong and best to admit it if and when we are convinced to be wrong and go forward with something learned.
It may interest you to know, or maybe you already know, that the number one complaint non-Calvinists have about Calvinists is the snotty comments and name calling that seem to appear sooner rather than later. I do understand you to say you are not a Calvinist per se...as I will respond I am not an Arminian per se.
Thanks
The calvin/armenian debate is crazy, I would say 90 % of the people here are neither.
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Niki7
Guest
I have actually been here quite a bit longer than my profile suggests. Left but came back several times.
There have been some rousing and intense debates re Calvinism in this forum. What you are currently seeing is pretty mild stuff. I think some Calvinists might have been banned due to their abusive posting...maybe some against Calvinism as well. I participated in those debates under another name so you won't find me in a search for those debates.
But yeah.....that topic is a hot one around here for sure
Another fav debate or 'discussion' that people like to start up, is whether or not we actually have a New Covenant through Christ or not. That one is a stomach turner for me personally
Sometimes we may be called one or the other, and you have to wonder, what does that even mean? it's like someone telling you you're cis gender. jeepers. I have to look that up every time I see it and I still don't know what it means!
1 Corinthians 10:16
The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?
I was around for the one debate where many on both sides Got banned.. A few good friends of mine God banned also. Which really sucked.. as I have not seen them in any chat room..I have actually been here quite a bit longer than my profile suggests. Left but came back several times.
There have been some rousing and intense debates re Calvinism in this forum. What you are currently seeing is pretty mild stuff. I think some Calvinists might have been banned due to their abusive posting...maybe some against Calvinism as well. I participated in those debates under another name so you won't find me in a search for those debates.
But yeah.....that topic is a hot one around here for sure
Another fav debate or 'discussion' that people like to start up, is whether or not we actually have a New Covenant through Christ or not. That one is a stomach turner for me personally
its because people look at key words.
If you say OSAS your calvinist. If you say NOSAS your an arminian.
it does not matter what you really believe..
I would say we need to recieve the body or bread spoken of in John 6. Not the last supper.. which represents john 6
Both you and Niki7 put belief before regeneration because you feel the need to perform a work to receive it. I, on the other hand, see it as a gift.
Eph 2:4-9
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
This sorta sounds like it happened while I was still dead in my sins. And it is exactly what I experienced! I was changed so that I both could/would believe!
No. Because me trusting in the WORK OF GOD., is not me working to earn my salvationBoth you and Niki7 put belief before regeneration because you feel the need to perform a work to receive it. I, on the other hand, see it as a gift.
We put belief before regeneration because regeneration can not occur while a person is dead in sin. and a person is justified BY FAITH (by receiving the gift of God in faith) God is not going to make a person alive while still under the penalty of sin..
I see nothing like that in this passage..
It says when we were dead, he quickened us together by grace.
then it says we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. then he makes it clear. it is not by works.
this totally destroys any thinking that our faith is a work..
faith is only a work if your faith is in your works or your self to save yourself
That's talking about Communion or the Lord's Supper. I believe it is one of two Christian ordinances begun by Jesus Himself. So I believe we should do both.
Baptism only requires one administration and is an outward sign of our part in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no command given as to how often to partake in Communion, but I believe it should be done on a regular basis. Like baptism, I believe it to be solely for believers.
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Niki7
Guest
Both you and Niki7 put belief before regeneration because you feel the need to perform a work to receive it. I, on the other hand, see it as a gift.
Eph 2:4-9
Salvation is the gift of God and faith is not a work. I have faith my post will post when I hit 'post reply' I ain't working for it
Of course that is what a Christian believes. I can't help how a Calvinist interprets it
Several days ago in my 2260 I asked everyone how they understood the Genesis post-Fall account. I wanted to know if people here thought scripture provided sufficient information to make a reasonable determination of the salvation status or our first parents. I presented the 4 options available to us. I wanted to know if God...
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A. saved both our first parents,
B. neither of them,
C. just one of them;
D. and if C, which one and why?
E. Or if A or B, why?
F. Or Scripture is inconclusive.
D and E are not really options in and of themselves but just questions seeking rational explanations of genuine options.
Someone here replied with option A, which as far as I can tell is likely the majority opinion among Christians. Most people I have talked with believe this and justify their belief with Gen 3:21.
Several years ago the Lord moved me to do a deep dive into the Genesis post-Fall account and other relevant passages throughout scripture. I sensed the great importance of trying to determine what really went on after sin entered God's "very good" creation. The Book of Genesis itself is the bedrock foundation to all the bible, so I took it upon myself to spend considerable time exegeting key passages and identifying key words in those passages to determine their usage. I was not surprised to discover that the Genesis record particularly lays a solid soteriological foundation for the truths I hold so dear In the process I developed a 15-point argument to support the conclusion I reached. These many arguments form the preponderance of evidence upon which my convictions rest. While I might be wrong, it would take about as many arguments going the other way to convince me. Thus far, no one has come up with anything close.
I will send up the argument in two parts. First, will be the 15 points. And then the typology portion of my argument will follow in a separate post. And just for your info, this latter addendum to my argument is not my own per se. It appears many within the Church have for ages recognized and acknowledged what the typological perspective of the Fall is. But even so...so many have drawn the wrong conclusion, completely forgetting, apparently, that typology can be based on positive comparisons or negative contrasts.
Stay tuned... And I welcome constructive, thoughtful feedback...critical or otherwise. This is the first time ever I have ever posted my study on this topic on a public forum.
.
A. saved both our first parents,
B. neither of them,
C. just one of them;
D. and if C, which one and why?
E. Or if A or B, why?
F. Or Scripture is inconclusive.
D and E are not really options in and of themselves but just questions seeking rational explanations of genuine options.
Someone here replied with option A, which as far as I can tell is likely the majority opinion among Christians. Most people I have talked with believe this and justify their belief with Gen 3:21.
Several years ago the Lord moved me to do a deep dive into the Genesis post-Fall account and other relevant passages throughout scripture. I sensed the great importance of trying to determine what really went on after sin entered God's "very good" creation. The Book of Genesis itself is the bedrock foundation to all the bible, so I took it upon myself to spend considerable time exegeting key passages and identifying key words in those passages to determine their usage. I was not surprised to discover that the Genesis record particularly lays a solid soteriological foundation for the truths I hold so dear In the process I developed a 15-point argument to support the conclusion I reached. These many arguments form the preponderance of evidence upon which my convictions rest. While I might be wrong, it would take about as many arguments going the other way to convince me. Thus far, no one has come up with anything close.
I will send up the argument in two parts. First, will be the 15 points. And then the typology portion of my argument will follow in a separate post. And just for your info, this latter addendum to my argument is not my own per se. It appears many within the Church have for ages recognized and acknowledged what the typological perspective of the Fall is. But even so...so many have drawn the wrong conclusion, completely forgetting, apparently, that typology can be based on positive comparisons or negative contrasts.
Stay tuned... And I welcome constructive, thoughtful feedback...critical or otherwise. This is the first time ever I have ever posted my study on this topic on a public forum.
I don't believe there's any works to it at all since it was told by Jesus to do. Jesus knows God does it all so He would not tell us to do something against what He's doing for us any ways. I believe when Peter was preaching in Acts 2:38, is how we read in Acts 10 is what happens.
I'll explain.
I believe Acts 10:
44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
^
Those verses explain what Jesus commanded and what Peter said in Acts 2:38
1. 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
2. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
3. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said to His Disciples 1. Repent, 2. be Baptized, 3. receive the Holy Spirit
Peter confirmed Jesus Words:
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
^
When Peter was preaching Those verses in Acts chapter 2 and 10 explain Ephesians 1: and Romans 10:
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
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17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
I don't believe any of this is "works" at all. It's the process that God commanded that happens when we believe. Water baptism is not a "works" it's a process Jesus said would be done.
Works is me trying to do something to gain salvation.
None of that was discussed by Jesus. I can't Repent until I know why I need to repent, I can't water Baptize myself someone else does it to me, and I cannot fill myself with the Holy Spirit - Hearing God's Word does that in the process of Regeneration.
Then he shouldn't have included himself as "us" in Hebrews 2:3 but he did. So he is talking about the Disciples.
If you are doing the work of water baptism to get saved.
You are trying to earn your salvation.
If you were baptized by God the moment you believed. God did all the work of saving you.