When did the Trinitarian concept enter and disrupt the strict monotheistic religion of Judaism and early Christianity?

[FollowerofShiloh]

I can see how some believe in the oneness when you consider that Jesus is the God we read about in the Old Testament. He told Moses He was I AM, ELOHIM, YHWH/YAHWEH, LORD, MOST HIGH GOD, etc. So when we take these NAMES and apply them to future prophecy like in Isaiah 53, we see the Pre-Incarnate Jesus talking about the future Jesus.

Here's a well known verse we apply to the Crucifixion in "every Church pulpit."
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:

So it's easy to see how when the "same Person of God in the Old Testament is talking about the (future) Himself in the New Testament" to think oneness.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Maybe it's the oneness pentecostals posting that God is not 3 in 1

The oneness pentecostals have to ignore numerous scriptures to hold their position.

I went to one of these churches back in the day and the preacher want\ed to pray for for me and then while his hand was on my forehead he tried to push me down!

I guess he wanted me to be "slain in the spirit" or something

 

[Nehemiah6]

The earliest Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, as well as the earliest translations into other languages (such as Latin, Syriac, and Coptic), do not include 1 John 5:7. The verse does not appear in any Greek manuscript before the 14th century, and even then, it appears in only a handful of late medieval manuscripts.

You are simply digging yourself deeper into a hole. But you have yet to say honestly "I reject the doctrine of the Trinity".

Speaking about "the earliest" Greek manuscripts, they only go back to the 4th century, and so does Jerome's Latin Vulgate (383-404). And the Vulgate includes 1 John 5:7, so that nullifies your argument.
7 And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in caelo : Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus : et hi tres unum sunt.

So just be honest and stop wasting everyone's time in this fruitless thread.

 

[montana123]

------------For the General Audience. We have so much error rampant through this forum. Hopefully every believer listens.------------

The concept of the trinity was finalized at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 after years of debate.

The Roman Catholic Church was a major influence for many years so the belief of a trinity was a major belief among the people, and it drifted to the Protestant movement that went by it for they did not weed out all the falsehood.

There are some churches that claim to be the true Church, but they have a belief that is not part of the Bible and it becomes their foundation for the interpreting of scriptures.

Joseph Smith had a belief that was not part of the Bible, and it became his foundation for the interpreting of scriptures, which is the Mormon church.

Scientology, Christian Science, new age movement, among others the same thing which they have a nature based foundation, and the new age movement is the reason that the world rebels against God which he will then end sin on earth(1 Timothy 4:1-5; 2 Timothy 4:2-4).

When the New Age Christ starts working in the world he will push the agenda of the new age movement which he will think to change times and laws, and things will change drastically.

It is obvious when the Roman Empire embraced Christianity they did not get rid of their pagan, and occult ways, and it became their foundation for the interpreting of scriptures.

The pagan religions have a trinity so they had a trinity.

The pagan religions have a female deity so they have a female deity, Mary who they call the Queen of heaven.

That is why they call the Pope holy father, but Jesus is the head of the Church, and He said to a man why do you call me good for there is only one who is good and that is God which the man Christ Jesus was giving glory to God that He does good because God causes Him to do good, and He said call no man on earth father which would be in a spiritual sense for only God is your Father which the Pope claims to operate in a spiritual sense so you cannot call him father.

But the Roman Catholic Church likes to exalt people like Peter claiming him as the first Pope which he was not for they interpret some scriptures wrongly.

That is why they do the things they do for they are like a pagan religion interpreting scriptures.

Also because their foundation is pagan, and of the occult, they can sway to go along with the world as it changes which is what will happen when the new Pope, and Vatican, go along with the new age movement interpretation of the Bible, and support the New Age Christ.

Which they become Mystery Babylon for they will represent all the false religions interpreted by the new age movement, and the Pope becomes the head of the unified religious system, and the Vatican the headquarters.

Which is why Pope Francis elected 72% of the Cardinals so they would be in the majority position to elect the new Pope who will go along with the new age movement.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The Bible only attributes the Father as God and does not say a trinity.

When the Bible says one God it means one God.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Son shall be called the everlasting Father for there is one deity the Father.

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus told Philip if he has seen Him then he has seen the Father, for Jesus is God manifest in the flesh and their is one deity the Father.

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

There is one throne in heaven, and one who sits on the throne, which is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

Let us make man in our image.

Adam made in the image of God.

New Testament Adam made in the figure of Him to come.

The image of God is the image of Christ.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word became flesh.

Which God had the plan in the beginning to come in the future in flesh, and created Adam in that image, which is an innocent nature in flesh.

So the let us make man in our image has to include the man Christ Jesus for He is part of that image.

So it is not a trinity but God the Father, and the Son, the man Christ Jesus, which the Son was made according to the flesh, and made of a woman, made under the law.

Baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Those are titles not names, and the name is singular which is Jesus.

Jesus said He came in His Father's name.

The Son inherited the name of the Father.

The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans were all baptized in the name of Jesus.

Everything we do in word, and in deed, we do all in the name of Jesus.

Jesus at the right hand of God.

There is one throne in heaven not two thrones.

The man Christ Jesus is the mediator between God and man.

Jesus said all power is given unto Him in heaven and earth.

God's right hand represents power, wisdom, and salvation.

David said the LORD said unto my Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.

Which the Son must reign until His enemies are conquered, and when they are conquered then the Son shall submit to the Father that God may be all in all for His mediator role is no longer needed.

God exalted the man Christ Jesus to be at His right hand for He is the mediator, exercise the throne of power, until His enemies are conquered, and when they are conquered then the Son shall stop being at the right hand, stop exercising the throne of power, and submit to the Father that God may be all in all.

So the Son at the right hand of God is a temporary role, and the only person we will see in heaven is Jesus who is a visible image of the Father which if you have seen Jesus then you have seen the Father.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not 3 persons of a trinity but the 3 relationships God has with His children designated by titles.

Father- Creator, and parent of the saints.

Son- God's visible relationship to the saints, and Him in visible activity.

Holy Spirit- God's invisible relationship to the saints, and Him in spiritual activity which the Spirit moved in creation, and the Son was conceived by the Spirit, and the Spirit dwells in the saints and leads them to be Christlike.

God said thou shalt have no other gods before me, and if you believe in one God you do well.

 

[montana123]

You are simply digging yourself deeper into a hole. But you have yet to say honestly "I reject the doctrine of the Trinity".

Speaking about "the earliest" Greek manuscripts, they only go back to the 4th century, and so does Jerome's Latin Vulgate (383-404). And the Vulgate includes 1 John 5:7, so that nullifies your argument.
7 And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in caelo : Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus : et hi tres unum sunt.

So just be honest and stop wasting everyone's time in this fruitless thread.

They say this was not in the original manuscripts and was later added on to support a trinity.

Also it does not prove a trinity for the Bible says there is one God the Father that is above all, and the Word is God manifest in the flesh testifying of the truth by the man Christ Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is God relating to us the truth which the Spirit will guide us in to all truth.

It does not take a trinity to do that but God the Father created all things which creation testifies of a higher power, and the Son testified of the truth which Jesus said if you have seen Him you have seen the Father, and the Holy Spirit testifies the truth to us which He will guide us in to all truth.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Why does the Bible only attribute the Father as God and does not say there is 3 persons in one God.

For it does not need to for Jesus is the Father manifest in the flesh, and the Holy Spirit guiding the saints.

The Roman Catholic Church did some serious damage with this doctrine.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

The Roman Catholic Church was a major influence for many years so the belief of a trinity was a major belief among the people, and it drifted to the Protestant movement that went by it for they did not weed out all the falsehood.

Not everything catholics believe is un-biblical.

They also believe one should not get divorced or remarried if divorced and the spouse is still living.

These are biblical beliefs

Ever notice all the scriptures about the Father?
Ever notice all the scriptures about the Jesus?
Ever notice all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?

 

[The_old_guy]

Neither of your two original posts actually address this. Since you use the word "disrupt" it would seem that you are Anti-Trinitarian. But you have not actually stated your position on the Trinity (which includes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). And "Judaism" only came into existence after the Jews rejected Christ. The Old Testament presents the Holy Trinity several times, and the ancient rabbis did believe that Messiah would be divine.

And to add to your true statement, that God is ONE God, as the Jews also believed, in three Persons.

 

[Nehemiah6]

For it does not need to for Jesus is the Father manifest in the flesh...

Not really. The Father is distinct from His only begotten Son, whom He calls "GOD" in both Testaments. So kindly go back and search the Scriptures. Even John 1:1 refutes your statement.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yeah, He also said Moses and Prophets spoke about Him. So the Old Testament references to God, Jesus is saying was Him.

“Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭43:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12-13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus the Christ began to teach of the father son and holy ghost in the gospel he sent to all people

 

[tylerbones1313]

You are simply digging yourself deeper into a hole. But you have yet to say honestly "I reject the doctrine of the Trinity".

Speaking about "the earliest" Greek manuscripts, they only go back to the 4th century, and so does Jerome's Latin Vulgate (383-404). And the Vulgate includes 1 John 5:7, so that nullifies your argument.
7 And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in caelo : Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus : et hi tres unum sunt.

So just be honest and stop wasting everyone's time in this fruitless thread.

I John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”

Although this verse of Scripture is often used by those who believe in three persons of God, it actually refutes this view, for it says that “these three are one.” Some interpret this phrase to mean one in unity as husband and wife are one. But it should be pointed out that this view is essentially polytheistic. If the word one referred to unity instead of a numerical designation, then the Godhead could be viewed as many gods in a united council or government. If unity were meant, the verse should have read, “These three agree as one.”

It is also interesting to note that this verse does not use the word Son, but Word. If Son were the special name of a distinct person in the Godhead, and if this verse were trying to teach distinct persons, why did it use Word instead of Son? Son does not refer primarily to deity, but Word does. The Word is not a distinct person from the Father any more than a man and his word are distinct persons. Rather, the Word is the thought, plan, or mind of God and also the expression of God.

In a similar way, the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is not a distinct person from the Father any more than a man and his spirit are distinct persons. “Holy Spirit” just describes what God is. I John 5:7 says that three bear record in heaven; that is, God has recorded Himself in three modes of activity or has revealed Himself in three ways. He has at least three heavenly roles: Father, Word (not Son), and Holy Ghost. Furthermore, these three roles describe one God: “these three are one.”

We have just explained I John 5:7 in a way that is consistent with the rest of Scripture. However, there is practically unanimous agreement among Bible scholars that this verse is really not part of the Bible at all! The absence in earlier manuscripts suggests that it may not have been part of the original text as written by the author of 1 John. All major translations since the King James Version have omitted it, including the Revised Standard Version, The Amplified Bible, and the New International Version. So does the generally accepted Greek text (Nestle’s text). The NIV renders I John 5:7-8 as, “For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and these three are in agreement.”

The KJV included verse 7 only because the 1522 edition of the Greek text compiled by Erasmus included it. Originally Erasmus had excluded this passage from his editions of 1516 and 1519 because it was not in any of 5,000 Greek manuscripts but only in late manuscripts of the Vulgate—the Latin version then used by the Roman Catholic Church. When the Catholic church put pressure on Erasmus to include this verse, he promised to do so if they could find even one Greek manuscript that had it. They finally produced one, so Erasmus reluctantly added the verse in, even though the manuscript so produced dated from 1520. (See Norman Geisler and William Nix, A General Introduction to the Bible, Chicago: Moody Press, 1968, 370.) From this evidence, it seems plausible that some overzealous copyist saw “there are three that testify” and decided to insert a little teaching of his own. Certainly, the passage in question is completely unrelated to the rest of John’s discussion here and interrupts the flow of his logical argument.

Although all the evidence indicates this passage was not originally a part of I John, God had His hand of protection and preservation on His Word. Despite the efforts of humans, God did not allow the passage to contradict His Word. Whether a person believes that I John 5:7 was originally part of the Bible or that it was a later interpolation, it does not teach three persons of God but rather reaffirms the Bible’s teaching of one indivisible God with various manifestations.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Bible says plainly this was a SIGN for John.
It was not for other people, only for John to see.
I go by the Bible not by my own reasoning and understanding.

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭

Everything written in the Bible is the witness of someone who witnessed these things from John the Baptist to John the apostles to Matthew and mark Peter James Paul

its really not that clear that only John witnessed it but honestly it doesn’t matter how wotness tbat it happened marks johns Luke’s are all witnessing the same thing to be believed by believers that when Jesus was baptized it happened just like he tells us to get baptized and receive the spirit

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38

Everything is witnessed by at least two witnesses

 

[tylerbones1313]

Not really. The Father is distinct from His only begotten Son, whom He calls "GOD" in both Testaments. So kindly go back and search the Scriptures. Even John 1:1 refutes your statement.

Many passages of Scripture refer to the existence of Jesus before His human life began. However, the Bible does not teach us that He existed separate and apart from the Father. On the contrary, in His deity He is the Father and Creator. The Spirit of Jesus existed from all eternity because He is God Himself. However, the humanity of Jesus did not exist before the Incarnation, except as a plan in the mind of God. Therefore, we can say the Spirit of Jesus preexisted the Incarnation, but we cannot say the Son preexisted the Incarnation in any substantial sense. John 1:1, 14 is a good summary of the teaching on the preexistence of Jesus: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . And the Word was made flesh.” In other words, Jesus existed from all eternity as God. The plan of the future Sonship existed with God from the beginning—as the mind of God. Ultimately, the Word became flesh—the expression of God the Father in human form.

Let us apply these concepts to various verses of Scripture that speak of the preexistence of Christ. We can understand John 8:58 (“Before Abraham was, I am”) to be a reference to the preexistence of Jesus as the God of the Old Testament. We can understand John 6:62 (“What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before”) in the same way, with Jesus using the phrase “Son of man” as the equivalent of “I” or “me” rather than to emphasize His humanity. In John 16:28 Jesus said, “I came forth from the Father.” This, too, refers to His preexistence as God. The divine nature of Jesus was God the Father, so the dual-natured Christ could say, “I came forth from the Father.” This statement may also describe the Word, the mind of God, becoming flesh, and being sent into the world.

In John 17:5 Jesus prayed, “O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Again, Jesus spoke of the glory He had as God in the beginning and the glory the Son had in the plan and mind of God. It could not mean that Jesus preexisted with glory as the Son. Jesus was praying, so He was speaking as a man. We know the humanity did not preexist the Incarnation, so Jesus was talking about the glory the Son had in the plan of God from the beginning.

John 3:17 and 5:30, along with other verses of Scripture, state that the Father sent the Son. Does this mean that Jesus, the Son of God, is a distinct person from the Father? We know this is not so because many verses of Scripture teach that God manifested Himself in flesh (II Corinthians 5:19; I Timothy 3:16). He gave of Himself; He did not send someone else (John 3:16). The Son was sent from God as a man, not as God: “God sent forth his Son, made of a woman” (Galatians 4:4). The word sent does not imply preexistence of the Son or preexistence of the man. John 1:6 states that John the Baptist was a man sent from God, and we know he did not preexist his conception. Instead, the word sent indicates that God appointed the Son for a special purpose. God formed a plan, put flesh on that plan, and then put that plan in operation. God gave the Son a special task. God manifested Himself in flesh in order to achieve a special goal. Hebrews 3:1 calls Jesus the Apostle of our profession, apostle meaning “one sent” in Greek. Briefly stated, the sending of the Son emphasizes the humanity of the Son and the specific purpose for which the Son was born.

 

[tylerbones1313]

A popular philosophical argument for the trinity is based on the fact that God is love. The basic argument is: How could God be love and show love before He created the world unless God was a plurality of persons that had love one for another? This line of reasoning is faulty for several reasons. First, even if correct it would not prove a trinity. In fact, it could lead to outright polytheism. Second, why does God need to prove to us the eternal nature of His love? Why cannot we simply accept the statement that God is love? Why do we limit God to our concept of love, contending that He could not have been love in eternity past unless He had a then-existing object of love? Third, how does the trinitarian solution avoid polytheism and at the same time avoid saying merely that God loved Himself? Fourth, we cannot limit God to time. He could and did love us from eternity past. Even though we were not then in existence, He foresaw our existence. To His mind we existed and He loved us.

John 3:35, 5:20, and 15:9 state that the Father loves the Son, and John 17:24 says the Father loved Jesus before the foundation of the world. In John 14:31 Jesus expressed love for the Father. All of these statements do not mean distinct persons. (Is it not strange that these passages omit the Holy Ghost from the love relationship?) What these verses express is the relationship of the man to the eternal Spirit. The Spirit loved the man and vice versa. The Spirit loved the man Jesus as He loves all humanity, and the man Jesus loved God as all people should love God. The Son came to the world to show us how much God loves us and also to be our example. For these two objectives to be achieved, the Father and the Son showed love for each other. God knew before the world began that He would manifest Himself as the Son. He loved His Son from the beginning. He loved that future Son just as He loved all of us from the beginning of time.

 

[tylerbones1313]

Many verses of Scripture distinguish between the Father and Son in power, greatness, and knowledge. However, it is a great mistake to use them to show two persons in the Godhead. If a distinction exists between Father and Son as persons in the Godhead, then the Son is subordinate or inferior to the Father in deity. This would mean the Son is not fully God, because by definition God is subject to no one. By definition, God has all power (omnipotence) and all knowledge (omniscience). The way to understand these verses is to view them as distinguishing the deity of Jesus (the Father) from the humanity of Jesus (the Son). As a man, Christ was subordinate to the Spirit of God that dwelt in Him.

John 5:19 says, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.” (See also John 5:30; 8:28.) In Matthew 28:18 Jesus proclaimed, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth,” implying that the Father gave Him this power. In John 14:28 Jesus said, “My Father is greater than I.” I Corinthians 11:3 states that the head of Christ is God. All these verses of Scripture indicate that the man could do nothing of Himself but received power from the Spirit. The flesh was subject to the Spirit.

In speaking of the Second Coming, Jesus said, “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (Mark 13:32). Again, as a man Jesus did not know all things, but the Spirit of Jesus did.

John 3:17 speaks of the Son as sent from God. In John 6:38 Jesus said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” Jesus did not come of Himself, that is of His humanity, but He proceeded from God (John 7:28; 8:42; 16:28). The Son did not teach His own doctrine but that of the Father (John 7:16-17). He did not teach His own commandments but taught and kept the Father’s commandments (John 12:49-50; 15:10). He did not seek His own glory, but He glorified the Father (John 8:50; 17:4). All of these passages describe the distinction between Jesus as a man (Son) and the Spirit of God (Father). The man Jesus did not originate by the operation of the humanity, nor did the man Jesus come to display the humanity. The Spirit formulated the plan, conceived the babe in the womb, placed in that flesh all the character and quality of God, and then sent that flesh out into the world to manifest God to the world. In the end, that flesh will have completed its purpose. The Son will be submerged in God’s plan so that God may be all in all (I Corinthians 15:28).

These verses describe the relationship of Christ as a man to the indwelling Spirit of God. If we interpret them as making a distinction between two persons called God the Father and God the Son, there would be a contradiction. We would have God the Son with the following characteristics that are not of God: He would not have any power of His own; He would not have full knowledge; He would not do His own will; He would have someone greater than Himself; He would have His origin in someone else; and He would eventually lose His own individuality. These scriptural facts contradict the concept of “God the Son.”

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Many passages of Scripture refer to the existence of Jesus before His human life began. However, the Bible does not teach us that He existed separate and apart from the Father. On the contrary, in His deity He is the Father and Creator. The Spirit of Jesus existed from all eternity because He is God Himself. However, the humanity of Jesus did not exist before the Incarnation, except as a plan in the mind of God. Therefore, we can say the Spirit of Jesus preexisted the Incarnation, but we cannot say the Son preexisted the Incarnation in any substantial sense. John 1:1, 14 is a good summary of the teaching on the preexistence of Jesus: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . And the Word was made flesh.” In other words, Jesus existed from all eternity as God. The plan of the future Sonship existed with God from the beginning—as the mind of God. Ultimately, the Word became flesh—the expression of God the Father in human form.

Let us apply these concepts to various verses of Scripture that speak of the preexistence of Christ. We can understand John 8:58 (“Before Abraham was, I am”) to be a reference to the preexistence of Jesus as the God of the Old Testament. We can understand John 6:62 (“What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before”) in the same way, with Jesus using the phrase “Son of man” as the equivalent of “I” or “me” rather than to emphasize His humanity. In John 16:28 Jesus said, “I came forth from the Father.” This, too, refers to His preexistence as God. The divine nature of Jesus was God the Father, so the dual-natured Christ could say, “I came forth from the Father.” This statement may also describe the Word, the mind of God, becoming flesh, and being sent into the world.

In John 17:5 Jesus prayed, “O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Again, Jesus spoke of the glory He had as God in the beginning and the glory the Son had in the plan and mind of God. It could not mean that Jesus preexisted with glory as the Son. Jesus was praying, so He was speaking as a man. We know the humanity did not preexist the Incarnation, so Jesus was talking about the glory the Son had in the plan of God from the beginning.

John 3:17 and 5:30, along with other verses of Scripture, state that the Father sent the Son. Does this mean that Jesus, the Son of God, is a distinct person from the Father? We know this is not so because many verses of Scripture teach that God manifested Himself in flesh (II Corinthians 5:19; I Timothy 3:16). He gave of Himself; He did not send someone else (John 3:16). The Son was sent from God as a man, not as God: “God sent forth his Son, made of a woman” (Galatians 4:4). The word sent does not imply preexistence of the Son or preexistence of the man. John 1:6 states that John the Baptist was a man sent from God, and we know he did not preexist his conception. Instead, the word sent indicates that God appointed the Son for a special purpose. God formed a plan, put flesh on that plan, and then put that plan in operation. God gave the Son a special task. God manifested Himself in flesh in order to achieve a special goal. Hebrews 3:1 calls Jesus the Apostle of our profession, apostle meaning “one sent” in Greek. Briefly stated, the sending of the Son emphasizes the humanity of the Son and the specific purpose for which the Son was born.

Amen this is good stuff

“the Bible does not teach us that He existed separate and apart from the Father. On the contrary, in His deity He is the Father and Creator. The Spirit of Jesus existed from all eternity because He is God Himself.”

indeed the humanity of Jesus is the part that was born and entered beforehand he is already glorified as the one true god who looked down from his throne in heaven and saw mankind was lost without an intercessor

“And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke. According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:16-21‬ ‭

So he The Lord would become the man that was worthy to intercede without fail he ( the father in heaven ) created and manifest himself in the flesh ( the son ) as an intercessor for mankind in order to put( his spirit the sons spirit ) in us his children

“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭

He is the Lord there’s just one but he dwells in heaven out of man’s sight but looks upon them

“The LORD is in his holy temple, The LORD's throne is in heaven: His eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Man was given dominion on earth but Satan took it from us through sin and death. Jesus looked down and saw mankind’s failed state of judgement because there was no sinless man to intercede for sinners as priest man had lost.

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He started promising a holy one would be born of a virgin in Israels bethlehem he would be called “Immanuel God with us “

jesus came and fulfilled this God being manifest in the flesh

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭

The sons name would be called …..the mighty God , wonderful , counsellor , the everlasting father , and also the prince ( Father and son )

Jesus is God , but he created himself n the form of a perfect man born i to israel at the appointed time to save us all

When the time came for the promises to come to pass

“And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace, good will toward men.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭2:10-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then afterwards he returned to what he already had been prior mighty God having created in himself and for himself a savior and intercessor of his beloved mankind.

jesus is the one true God being manifest to the earth so we can hear , know and believe him have an intercessor a mediator between mankind and God an advocate that is for us with him always

God became the man we needed to be saved and then in him he fulfilled all of his promises he had made for mankind’s intercessor and savior he came himself and saved us then said believe and be saved

The trinity are three distinct manifestations of the one God that serve the purpose of his plan of salvation for mankind

God the creator and father of living spirits who dwells in heaven

Jesus the promised son of man the savior and Lord of all who would be born in Israel “the Christ “ God become flesh and manifest to the earth

and the holy spirit which is Christ the sons spirit in us and our true connection to him forever what makes us the children of God is to accept Jesus who is the fullness of God the father son and holy ghost in one body one person

“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[JaumeJ]

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are cited in the Old Testament rendering the op question moot.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are cited in the Old Testament rendering the op question moot.

Since the question is moot, shouldn't we give it the boot?

 

[tylerbones1313]

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are cited in the Old Testament rendering the op question moot.

The statement that "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are cited in the Old Testament rendering the op question moot" is not accurate in the context of how Trinitarian concepts are understood in traditional Christian doctrine. The Trinity, as defined by mainstream Christianity, is a concept that describes God as three distinct persons — the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit — in one divine essence. This doctrine is not explicitly outlined in the Old Testament and developed significantly in the early centuries of Christianity, particularly formalized in the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD and the subsequent First Council of Constantinople in 381 AD.

The Old Testament, which forms part of the Jewish sacred scriptures, emphasizes a strict monotheism, central to Jewish religious identity, with the Shema prayer (Deuteronomy 6:4) stating, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." This verse and the broader Old Testament context do not articulate a Trinitarian view of God. Instead, the concept of the Trinity is largely drawn from theological reflections of early Christian writers and Church Fathers (human private interpretations.) 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." This part emphasizes that the prophecies contained in the Bible are not meant to be understood or interpreted based on individual or private perspectives. Instead, it suggests that the understanding of these prophecies requires a guided interpretation, often implying that the guidance of the Holy Spirit is necessary for true comprehension. It also underscores the idea that the messages in these prophecies are universal and not subject to personal biases or interpretations.

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." This verse further clarifies the source of prophecy. It states that prophecies were not produced by human will or intention (The Trinity). Instead, they were delivered by "holy men of God," (Old and New Testament authors (not anyone else)) meaning individuals who were dedicated to God and led by God's spirit. These men spoke under the influence or inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The verse asserts that the prophecies are divinely inspired and not the product of human creativity or imagination.

(Old and New Testament authors (not anyone else)) Let me clarify. The Bible is the fullest revelation. Trying to get the Scriptures to say three separate persons when we know it is strictly numerically ONE inseparable God, is private interpretation or trying to introduce new revelation. When we know the bible is the final authority not our individual interpretations. If scripture can't interpret itself our finite interpretation just won'tdo.

 

[tylerbones1313]

So you conclude that NT is a deep fake and Jesus is not Who He says that He is?

Supposed scholarly hypothesis aside, you still need to deal with this:

Jhn 5:45
“Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust.
Jhn 5:46
“For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.


Jhn 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus stressed how important it is for us to understand who He really is—the Jehovah of the Old Testament: “If ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins” (John 8:24). The word he is in italics in the King James Version, which indicates it is not in the Greek but was added by the translators. So Jesus called Himself the “I AM,” the name Jehovah used in Exodus 3:14-15. Jesus was saying, “If you believe not that I AM, you shall die in your sins.” It is not mandatory that a person have a thorough comprehension of all questions relating to the Godhead to be saved, but he must believe that there is one God and that Jesus is God. (3) The Oneness message determines the formula for water baptism—in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38). (4) Oneness thought teaches us how important the baptism of the Holy Ghost really is. Since there is only one Spirit of God, and since the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, we fully receive Christ into our lives when we are filled or baptized with the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9).

Since the Bible so plainly teaches the oneness of God and the full deity of Jesus Christ, why is it obscure to many people, especially to those in Christendom? The answer is that it comes not merely through intellectual study but through divine illumination of the Scriptures. It comes through prayerful study, diligent searching, and intense desire for truth. When Peter made his great confession of the deity of Jesus, Jesus said, “Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:16-17). Therefore, if we want to understand the almighty God in Christ we must put away human doctrines, traditions, philosophies, and theories. In their place we must put the pure Word of God. We must ask God to reveal this great truth to us through His Word. We must seek after His Spirit to illuminate His Word and to guide us into all truth (John 14:26; 16:13). It is not enough to rely on church dogmas, for church dogmas are only valid if they are taught in Scripture. We must go back to the Bible itself, study it, and ask God to illuminate it by His Spirit.

 

[tylerbones1313]

If I understand your purposefully vague posts, you DO believe Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.

That's a pretty good start for most who deny the Trinty. I believe you are advocating some type of modalism, which is heresy.

But let me ask you this.
There are many passages that speak of Jesus sitting NEXT TO His Father. how can this be if both He, and His Father are not separate?

Romans 8:34

New King James Version

34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

We would encounter many inconsistencies if we were to interpret the description of Jesus on the right hand of God to mean a physical positioning between two Gods with separate bodies. If we understand it as symbolic of the power, strength, authority, preeminence, victory, exaltation, and saving ability of Jesus as manifested in flesh, then we eliminate the conflicting concepts. Furthermore, this interpretation is consistent with the use of the phrase “right hand of God” throughout the Bible. The “right hand” reveals the omnipotence and absolute deity of Jesus and vindicates the message of one God in Christ. What about Stephen and what did he actually see? It is apparent that he saw Jesus. Isaiah 40:5 says with reference to the coming of the Messiah, “And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.” Jesus is the revealed glory of God. Stephen saw the glory of God when he saw Jesus. He saw Jesus radiating the glory that He possessed as God and with all the power and authority of God. In short, he saw the exalted Christ. He saw Jesus not merely as a man but as God Himself, with all glory, power, and authority. That is why he called on God by saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” (Acts 7:59).