When did the Trinitarian concept enter and disrupt the strict monotheistic religion of Judaism and early Christianity?

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Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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Abraham was aware of the Trinity, He called the Three Angels of the LORD, "My LORD," and They answered.
Stupid translations, my translation states 'three men'.

Genesis 18:1-2
Now the Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When he raised his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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You are simply digging yourself deeper into a hole. But you have yet to say honestly "I reject the doctrine of the Trinity".

Speaking about "the earliest" Greek manuscripts, they only go back to the 4th century, and so does Jerome's Latin Vulgate (383-404). And the Vulgate includes 1 John 5:7, so that nullifies your argument.
7 And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in caelo : Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus : et hi tres unum sunt.

So just be honest and stop wasting everyone's time in this fruitless thread.
The Vulgate comes in handy at times.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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Stupid translations, my translation states 'three men'.

Genesis 18:1-2
Now the Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When he raised his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him
yes, three men, and they were Larry Curly and Moe.
 
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I guess when the disciples saw Jesus praying? Then there must be someone who is God but who is not Jesus.
What, then, is the explanation of the prayers of Christ? It can only be that the man Jesus prayed to the eternal Spirit of God. God did not need help; only the man did. As Jesus said at the Garden of Gethsemane, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41). Hebrews 5:7 makes it clear that Jesus needed to pray only during “the days of his flesh.” During the prayer at Gethsemane, the human will submitted to the divine will. Through prayer He as a human learned to submit and be obedient to the Spirit of God (Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 5:7-8). This was not a struggle between two divine wills but the submission of the human will to the divine will. As a man Jesus submitted Himself to and received strength from the Spirit of God.

Some may object to this explanation, contending that it means Jesus prayed to Himself. However, we must realize that, unlike any other human being, Jesus had two perfect and complete natures—humanity and deity. What would be absurd or impossible for an ordinary person is not so strange with Jesus. We do not say Jesus prayed to Himself, for this would incorrectly imply that the man was the same as the Spirit. Rather, we say that the man prayed to the Spirit of God, while also recognizing that the Spirit dwelt in the man.

The choice is simple. Either Jesus as God prayed to the Father or Jesus as man prayed to the Father. If the former were true, then we have a form of subordinationism or Arianism in which one person in the Godhead is inferior to, not coequal with, another person in the Godhead. This contradicts the biblical concept of one God, the full deity of Jesus, and the omnipotence of God. If the second alternative is correct, and we believe that it is, then no distinction of persons in the Godhead exists. The only distinction is between humanity and deity, not between God and God.

If we do not accept that Jesus was fully human, then the scriptural references to His temptations lose meaning (Matthew 4:1-11; Hebrews 2:16-18; 4:14-16). So does the description of His struggle and agony in Gethsemane (Luke 22:39-44). Two passages in Hebrews point out that since Jesus was tempted as we are, He qualifies as our High Priest, understands us perfectly, and helps us in our infirmities: “In all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren” (Hebrews 2:17). “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:15). Hebrews 5:7-8 says, “Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death and was heard in that he feared; though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.” These verses do not present a picture of someone unaffected by the emotions of fears and doubts. Rather, they describe someone who possessed these human weaknesses; He had to subdue the human will and submit to the eternal Spirit.

As a genuine human, Christ prayed, cried, learned obedience, and suffered. The Spirit of God was in control and God was faithful to His own plan, but as a human Jesus had to obtain help from the Spirit and, had to learn obedience to the divine plan. Surely all these verses of Scripture show that Jesus was fully human—that He had every attribute of humanity except the sinful nature inherited from the Fall. If we deny the humanity of Jesus, we encounter a problem with the concept of redemption and atonement. Not being fully human, could His sacrifice be sufficient to redeem us? Could He really be a true substitute for us in death? Could He truly qualify as our kinsman redeemer?
 
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Also if no one but John saw this event then what makes you think that this isn’t a triune relationship when John sees the Dove and hears the voice in regards to Jesus?
If this isn’t the ‘when‘ according to you, then do you have a date for the ‘when’ so we can help out the op?
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: and, lo, a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:16-17).

According to this passage, the Son of God was baptized, the Spirit descended like a dove, and a voice spoke from heaven. Luke 3:22 adds the further information that “the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him.”

To understand this scene, we must remember that God is omnipresent. Jesus is God and was God manifested in flesh while on earth. He could not and did not sacrifice His omnipresence while on earth because that is one of God’s basic attributes, and God does not change. Of course, the physical body of Jesus was not omnipresent, but His Spirit was. Furthermore, although the fullness of God’s character was resident in the body of Jesus, the omnipresent Spirit of Jesus could not be so confined. Thus, Jesus could be on earth and in heaven at the same time (John 3:13) and with two or three of His disciples at any time (Matthew 18:20).

With the omnipresence of God in mind we can understand the baptism of Christ very easily. It was not at all difficult for the Spirit of Jesus to speak from heaven and to send a manifestation of His Spirit in the form of a dove even while His human body was in the Jordan River. The voice and the dove do not represent different persons any more than the voice of God from Sinai indicates that the mountain was a second intelligent person in the Godhead.

Since the voice and the dove were symbolic manifestations of the one omnipresent God, we may ask what they represented. What was their purpose? First, we must ask what was the purpose of Jesus’ baptism. Certainly He was not baptized for remission of sin as we are, because He was sinless (I Peter 2:22). Instead, the Bible says He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15). He is our example and He was baptized to leave us an example to follow (I Peter 2:21).

Moreover, Jesus was baptized as a means of manifesting Himself, or making Himself known, to Israel (John 1:26-27, 31). In other words, Jesus used the baptism as the starting point in His ministry. It was a public declaration of who He was and what He came to do. For example, at Christ’s baptism, John the Baptist learned who Jesus was. He did not know that Jesus really was the Messiah until the baptism, and after the baptism he was able to declare to the people that Jesus was the Son of God and the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29-34).

Having established the purposes of Christ’s baptism, let us see how the dove and voice furthered those purposes.

John 1:32-34 clearly states that the dove was a sign for the benefit of John the Baptist. Since John was the forerunner of Jehovah (Isaiah 40:3), he needed to know that Jesus was really Jehovah come in flesh. God had told John that the One who would baptize with the Holy Ghost would be identified by the Spirit descending upon Him. Of course, John was incapable of seeing the Spirit of God anointing Christ, so God chose a dove as the visible sign of His Spirit. Thus the dove was a special sign for John to let him know that Jesus was Jehovah and the Messiah.

The dove also was a type of anointing to signify the beginning of Christ’s ministry. In the Old Testament, prophets, priests, and kings were anointed with oil to indicate that God had chosen them (Exodus 28:41; I Kings 19:16). Priests in particular were both washed in water and anointed with oil (Exodus 29:4, 7). The oil symbolized God’s Spirit. The Old Testament foretold that Jesus would be similarly anointed (Psalm 2:2; 45:7; Isaiah 61:1). In fact, the Hebrew word Messiah (Christ in Greek) means “the Anointed One.” Jesus came to fulfill the roles of prophet, priest, and king (Acts 3:20-23; Hebrews 3:1; Revelation 1:5). He also came to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17-18), and to keep His own law He needed to be anointed as prophet, priest, and king.

Since Jesus was God Himself and a sinless man, an anointing by a sinful human and anointing with symbolic oil was not enough. Instead, Jesus was anointed directly by the Spirit of God. Thus, at His baptism in water, Jesus was officially anointed for the beginning of His earthly ministry, not by symbolic oil but by the Spirit of God in the form of a dove.

The voice came from heaven for the benefit of the people. John 12:28-30 records a similar incident in which a voice came from heaven and confirmed the deity of Jesus to the people. Jesus said it came not for His benefit but for the people’s sake. The voice was God’s way of formally introducing Jesus to Israel as the Son of God. Many people were present at the baptism of Jesus and many were being baptized (Luke 3:21), so the Spirit singled out the man Jesus and identified Him to all as the Son of God by a miraculous voice from heaven. This was much more effective and convincing than an announcement coming from Jesus as a man. In fact, it appears that this miraculous manifestation effectively accomplished Jesus’ purpose at His baptism.

The baptism of Jesus does not teach us that God is three persons but only reveals the omnipresence of God and the humanity of the Son of God. When God speaks to four different people on four different continents at the same time, we do not think of four persons of God but of God’s omnipresence. God did not intend for the baptism to reveal to the monotheistic Jewish onlookers a radically new revelation of a plurality in the Godhead, and there is no indication that the Jews interpreted it as such. Even many modern scholars do not see the baptism of Christ as an indication of a trinity but as a reference to “the authoritative anointing of Jesus as the Messiah.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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Jesus claimed to be God and referred to both the Holy Spirit and God the Father.

So.
Is the OP claiming Jesus is a liar and imposter?

Because Jesus most definitely was not a liar or an imposter. Obviously the OP wants something less than a God who knows him very well.
 
Dec 29, 2023
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Jesus claimed to be God and referred to both the Holy Spirit and God the Father.

So.
Is the OP claiming Jesus is a liar and imposter?

Because Jesus most definitely was not a liar or an imposter. Obviously the OP wants something less than a God who knows him very well.

Some people get quite animated over the trinity.

I exchanged emails with a preacher once about all this and he told me if one believes in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit they are going to hell.

So, I emailed back and told him he's ugly and his mother dresses him funny! :ROFL::sneaky::LOL:
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,576
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And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: and, lo, a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:16-17).

According to this passage, the Son of God was baptized, the Spirit descended like a dove, and a voice spoke from heaven. Luke 3:22 adds the further information that “the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him.”

To understand this scene, we must remember that God is omnipresent. Jesus is God and was God manifested in flesh while on earth. He could not and did not sacrifice His omnipresence while on earth because that is one of God’s basic attributes, and God does not change. Of course, the physical body of Jesus was not omnipresent, but His Spirit was. Furthermore, although the fullness of God’s character was resident in the body of Jesus, the omnipresent Spirit of Jesus could not be so confined. Thus, Jesus could be on earth and in heaven at the same time (John 3:13) and with two or three of His disciples at any time (Matthew 18:20).

With the omnipresence of God in mind we can understand the baptism of Christ very easily. It was not at all difficult for the Spirit of Jesus to speak from heaven and to send a manifestation of His Spirit in the form of a dove even while His human body was in the Jordan River. The voice and the dove do not represent different persons any more than the voice of God from Sinai indicates that the mountain was a second intelligent person in the Godhead.

Since the voice and the dove were symbolic manifestations of the one omnipresent God, we may ask what they represented. What was their purpose? First, we must ask what was the purpose of Jesus’ baptism. Certainly He was not baptized for remission of sin as we are, because He was sinless (I Peter 2:22). Instead, the Bible says He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15). He is our example and He was baptized to leave us an example to follow (I Peter 2:21).

Moreover, Jesus was baptized as a means of manifesting Himself, or making Himself known, to Israel (John 1:26-27, 31). In other words, Jesus used the baptism as the starting point in His ministry. It was a public declaration of who He was and what He came to do. For example, at Christ’s baptism, John the Baptist learned who Jesus was. He did not know that Jesus really was the Messiah until the baptism, and after the baptism he was able to declare to the people that Jesus was the Son of God and the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29-34).

Having established the purposes of Christ’s baptism, let us see how the dove and voice furthered those purposes.

John 1:32-34 clearly states that the dove was a sign for the benefit of John the Baptist. Since John was the forerunner of Jehovah (Isaiah 40:3), he needed to know that Jesus was really Jehovah come in flesh. God had told John that the One who would baptize with the Holy Ghost would be identified by the Spirit descending upon Him. Of course, John was incapable of seeing the Spirit of God anointing Christ, so God chose a dove as the visible sign of His Spirit. Thus the dove was a special sign for John to let him know that Jesus was Jehovah and the Messiah.

The dove also was a type of anointing to signify the beginning of Christ’s ministry. In the Old Testament, prophets, priests, and kings were anointed with oil to indicate that God had chosen them (Exodus 28:41; I Kings 19:16). Priests in particular were both washed in water and anointed with oil (Exodus 29:4, 7). The oil symbolized God’s Spirit. The Old Testament foretold that Jesus would be similarly anointed (Psalm 2:2; 45:7; Isaiah 61:1). In fact, the Hebrew word Messiah (Christ in Greek) means “the Anointed One.” Jesus came to fulfill the roles of prophet, priest, and king (Acts 3:20-23; Hebrews 3:1; Revelation 1:5). He also came to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17-18), and to keep His own law He needed to be anointed as prophet, priest, and king.

Since Jesus was God Himself and a sinless man, an anointing by a sinful human and anointing with symbolic oil was not enough. Instead, Jesus was anointed directly by the Spirit of God. Thus, at His baptism in water, Jesus was officially anointed for the beginning of His earthly ministry, not by symbolic oil but by the Spirit of God in the form of a dove.

The voice came from heaven for the benefit of the people. John 12:28-30 records a similar incident in which a voice came from heaven and confirmed the deity of Jesus to the people. Jesus said it came not for His benefit but for the people’s sake. The voice was God’s way of formally introducing Jesus to Israel as the Son of God. Many people were present at the baptism of Jesus and many were being baptized (Luke 3:21), so the Spirit singled out the man Jesus and identified Him to all as the Son of God by a miraculous voice from heaven. This was much more effective and convincing than an announcement coming from Jesus as a man. In fact, it appears that this miraculous manifestation effectively accomplished Jesus’ purpose at His baptism.

The baptism of Jesus does not teach us that God is three persons but only reveals the omnipresence of God and the humanity of the Son of God. When God speaks to four different people on four different continents at the same time, we do not think of four persons of God but of God’s omnipresence. God did not intend for the baptism to reveal to the monotheistic Jewish onlookers a radically new revelation of a plurality in the Godhead, and there is no indication that the Jews interpreted it as such. Even many modern scholars do not see the baptism of Christ as an indication of a trinity but as a reference to “the authoritative anointing of Jesus as the Messiah.
Long post of very private interpretations.

YOU say the Holy Spirit and voice from heaven were “symbolic”. YOUR private interpretation absolutely doesn’t make it true.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
6,187
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Long post of very private interpretations.

YOU say the Holy Spirit and voice from heaven were “symbolic”. YOUR private interpretation absolutely doesn’t make it true.
"Private interpretation "?

I really wouldn't characterize it as that....
More like an interpretation after using scissors on the scriptures.
Here's the translation he might have used....

 
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There is evidence in the Old Testament of the "dual-entity" nature of God, and the rabbis were uncomfortably aware of this. I'll provide some more background later.
Care to elaborate what you disagree on in post 94. or just giving me a red x w/o explanation.
 
May 1, 2022
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Long post of very private interpretations.

YOU say the Holy Spirit and voice from heaven were “symbolic”. YOUR private interpretation absolutely doesn’t make it true.
then tell me why or what you think. or prove my statements false don't just accuse without proof.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,423
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Isiah 9:6..............
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,576
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then tell me why or what you think. or prove my statements false don't just accuse without proof.
What is there to prove?

All 3 persons of the Trinity were Present at the exact same moment in time.

I don’t need a ten inch long post to prove what Scripture already plainly says.
 
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Jesus claimed to be God and referred to both the Holy Spirit and God the Father.

So.
Is the OP claiming Jesus is a liar and imposter?

Because Jesus most definitely was not a liar or an imposter. Obviously the OP wants something less than a God who knows him very well.
We should consider the dual nature of Christ in the framework of biblical terminology. The term “Father” refers to God Himself—God in all His deity. When we speak of the eternal Spirit of God, we mean God Himself, the Father. “God the Father,” therefore, is a perfectly acceptable and biblical phrase to use for God (Titus 1:4). However, the Bible does not use the phrase “God the Son” even one time. It is not a correct term because the Son of God refers to the humanity of Jesus Christ. The Bible defines the Son of God as the child born of Mary, not as the eternal Spirit of God (Luke 1:35). “Son of God” may refer to the human nature or it may refer to God manifested in flesh—that is, deity in the human nature.

“Son of God” never means the incorporeal Spirit alone, however. We can never use “Son” correctly apart from the humanity of Jesus Christ. The terms “Son of God,” “Son of man,” and “Son” are appropriate and biblical. However, the term “God the Son” is inappropriate because it equates the Son with deity alone, and therefore it is unscriptural.

The Son of God is not a distinct person in the Godhead but the physical expression of the one God. The Son is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:13-15) and “the express image of his [God’s] person” (Hebrews 1:2-3). Just as a signature stamp leaves an exact likeness on paper, or just as a seal leaves an exact impression when pressed in wax, so the Son of God is the exact expression of the Spirit of God in flesh. Humans could not see the invisible God, so God made an exact likeness of Himself in flesh, impressed His very nature in flesh, came Himself in flesh, so that humans could see and know Him.
 
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Isiah 9:6..............

Isiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
 
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What is there to prove?

All 3 persons of the Trinity were Present at the exact same moment in time.

I don’t need a ten inch long post to prove what Scripture already plainly says.
Scripture says nothing about separate persons in God or a Trinity. If it does anywhere please show me.
 
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Scripture says nothing about separate persons in God or a Trinity. If it does anywhere please show me.

Ever see all the scriptures about the Father?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Jesus?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

In fact.... you and I are three that is one (we are a spirit, we possess a soul, and we live in a body)

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


After all... the Lord did create man in His Own Image.

Genesis 1:26
God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness


That's the Father, the Word, and the Spirit saying "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"