Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Niki7]

Of course. If the truth isn't convoluted and complex, you can't accept it.

You truly are not worth responding to. When an individual, you in particular in this case, resorts to insults rather than dialogue, they most likely have nothing worthwhile to offer.

I told you before that if you continued with the 'smartmouth' you spout towards me that I would elect to leave you to your own devices so that is actually the most appropriate response you deserve.

It is observable that you use this method to attempt to engage others in an argument and try to make it seem they are the ones with the problem.

It is a childish and sad way to conduct yourself while saying you are such a wonderful student of the Bible.

 

[PaulThomson]

I believe this is talking about Christians/the Elect/all followers and disciples of the Lord. This is the reason that we plant seeds and share the Gospel with others.

The text doesn't say that. t is about future followers At the time Jesus was praying, only certain persons had been chosen to be with Him and to learn from Him. The verbs are past tenses, until Jesus gets to "those who will believe on Me through their (the twelve's, or the seventy's) word".

 

[Rufus]

You truly are not worth responding to. When an individual, you in particular in this case, resorts to insults rather than dialogue, they most likely have nothing worthwhile to offer.

I told you before that if you continued with the 'smartmouth' you spout towards me that I would elect to leave you to your own devices so that is actually the most appropriate response you deserve.

It is observable that you use this method to attempt to engage others in an argument and try to make it seem they are the ones with the problem.

It is a childish and sad way to conduct yourself while saying you are such a wonderful student of the Bible.

Well...you are one with the problem. You believe a false gospel, which as Paul said, is "really no gospel" at all. You entertain these fantasies about God and Man, grossly underestimating the former while simultaneously greatly overestimating the latter.

 

[Mem]

And that to you means what exactly: That dead men who naturally hate God have the innate ability to undo their hate and repent of their sins?

Try taking your calvinized glasses off while reading my post, and it might help you understand what I mean exactly.

 

[Rufus]

Try taking your calvinized glasses off while reading my post, and it might help you understand what I mean exactly.

Why don't explain yourself then. I would love to know how spiritually dead men have any spiritual ability. Do you think that Jesus forced his will upon Lazarus when he commanded him to come forth from his tomb?

 

[BillyBob]

Further, the working of God within the individual (by His Spirit) refers to a saved individual. Indeed, what do we have of salvation that we did not receive. It is the GIFT of God and by His mercy. Nothing whatsoever about a person having no choice in the matter.

Romans can be somewhat difficult in its presentation at times, but at no time does Paul state he was forced into salvation nor does he indicate that anyone else is. Despite the fact he was waylaid on his journey to further attack Christians, by Christ in His risen forum, Paul never states that he was, by that meeting, forced to accept Christ.

The account relates that Paul actually ASKED who was speaking to Him. He was not forced into anything. Jesus told Paul that He was the One Paul was persecuting. (note Jesus did not say why are you persecuting Christians. We, as believers, are a part of the body of Christ and therefore part of His persecution)

So if Paul asked, he was not immediately saved against his will but still had his own reasoning and could ask a question and decide his response.

You are totally wrong in your understanding of Paul's encounter with Christ.

1st The Spirit's work does not just apply to a saved individual. The Spirit also acts to bring the person to Christ. Remember, the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son.
2nd You are correct, Paul was not forced – he was changed and then came willingly.
3rd Would he have come willingly had he not been (waylaid) on his journey? That would be a NO, if your scratching your head trying to figure it out!
4th Later Christ tells Ananias “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Does the Father, Son, and Spirit work in all men this way? I don't think so! But when it happens, it stands firm!

 

[PaulThomson]

The text doesn't say that. t is about future followers At the time Jesus was praying, only certain persons had been chosen to be with Him and to learn from Him. The verbs are past tenses, until Jesus gets to "those who will believe on Me through their (the twelve's, or the seventy's) word".

Oh, that came out a bit jumbled. It should say -

The text doesn't say that it is about future followers. At the time Jesus was praying, only certain persons had been chosen to be with Him and to learn from Him. The verbs are past tenses, until Jesus gets to "those who will believe on Me through their (the twelve's, or the seventy's) word".

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I don’t understand what you mean, brother. I believe verses 20 and 21 look forward to the time when Christ returns and the Millennial kingdom and finally, the Eternity come to pass—when creation will be perfect again as it was in the first earth age. This is the hope we have as Christians and what we wait for.

Look at your verses you have posted from Romans 8. They are the tail end of what Paul is saying in this stanza. But the beginning of your verses begins with the verses before yours. And what verses you quoted relate to the verses before. Verses 20/21 shows us who Election/Predestination belong to from your verses. They belong to CREATION. So ALL humans have been Elected/Predestined.

20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who subjected it,

21 in hope that the creation itself shall be freed from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

So it was God's desire that ALL Creation be FREED and become His children. This is what predestination/election is all about. But FREE WILL is what negates that.

2 Constants we should NEVER forget:
1. 11 Say unto them: As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die

2. 33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.


It's not God's desire that His Creation dies. But who sins (not repenting) gets blotted out of His Book. His Book is the only Book that matters.


The Reformed doctrine is a complete lie knowing what Paul really wrote here in Romans 8.

 

[Rufus]

You are totally wrong in your understanding of Paul's encounter with Christ.

1st The Spirit's work does not just apply to a saved individual. The Spirit also acts to bring the person to Christ. Remember, the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son.
2nd You are correct, Paul was not forced – he was changed and then came willingly.
3rd Would he have come willingly had he not been (waylaid) on his journey? That would be a NO, if your scratching your head trying to figure it out!
4th Later Christ tells Ananias “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Does the Father, Son, and Spirit work in all men this way? I don't think so! But when it happens, it stands firm!

Great question! Of course, he would not have come. I even wrote once on that we all have had our own "On-the-Road-to-Damascus" salvation experiences -- some not as dramatic as Paul's, but others of us have had dramatic experiences when God intervened in our lives.

 

[Niki7]

You are totally wrong in your understanding of Paul's encounter with Christ.

1st The Spirit's work does not just apply to a saved individual. The Spirit also acts to bring the person to Christ. Remember, the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son.
2nd You are correct, Paul was not forced – he was changed and then came willingly.
3rd Would he have come willingly had he not been (waylaid) on his journey? That would be a NO, if your scratching your head trying to figure it out!
4th Later Christ tells Ananias “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Does the Father, Son, and Spirit work in all men this way? I don't think so! But when it happens, it stands firm!

 

[Rufus]

Look at your verses you have posted from Romans 8. They are the tail end of what Paul is saying in this stanza. But the beginning of your verses begins with the verses before yours. And what verses you quoted relate to the verses before. Verses 20/21 shows us who Election/Predestination belong to from your verses. They belong to CREATION. So ALL humans have been Elected/Predestined.

20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who subjected it,

21 in hope that the creation itself shall be freed from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

So it was God's desire that ALL Creation be FREED and become His children. This is what predestination/election is all about. But FREE WILL is what negates that.

2 Constants we should NEVER forget:
1. 11 Say unto them: As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die

2. 33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.


It's not God's desire that His Creation dies. But who sins (not repenting) gets blotted out of His Book. His Book is the only Book that matters.


The Reformed doctrine is a complete lie knowing what Paul really wrote here in Romans 8.

"Creation" in those two verses is all creation -- animate and inanimate. "Creation" is being personified here since all creation (animate and inanimate) was cursed after the Fall. And, of course, all creation, will be renewed when Christ returns. In fact, the entire planet will be the Garden of Eden! It was never God's intention that his creation should die (come under his curse due to Adam's sin)...but here we are. While God could have prevented the Fall, he obviously thought it would be better for his image-bearers to have the knowledge of Good and Evil, rather than not. God's choices are always the BEST, even though we may not currently understand how.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

"Creation" in those two verses is all creation -- animate and inanimate. "Creation" is being personified here since all creation (animate and inanimate) was cursed after the Fall. And, of course, all creation, will be renewed when Christ returns. In fact, the entire planet will be the Garden of Eden! It was never God's intention that his creation should die (come under his curse due to Adam's sin)...but here we are. While God could have prevented the Fall, he obviously thought it would be better for his image-bearers to have the knowledge of Good and Evil, rather than not. God's choices are always the BEST, even though we may not currently understand how.

Not going to even discuss this with you. I am tired of your lies.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Look at your verses you have posted from Romans 8. They are the tail end of what Paul is saying in this stanza. But the beginning of your verses begins with the verses before yours. And what verses you quoted relate to the verses before. Verses 20/21 shows us who Election/Predestination belong to from your verses. They belong to CREATION. So ALL humans have been Elected/Predestined.

20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who subjected it,

21 in hope that the creation itself shall be freed from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

So it was God's desire that ALL Creation be FREED and become His children. This is what predestination/election is all about. But FREE WILL is what negates that.

2 Constants we should NEVER forget:
1. 11 Say unto them: As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die

2. 33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.


It's not God's desire that His Creation dies. But who sins (not repenting) gets blotted out of His Book. His Book is the only Book that matters.


The Reformed doctrine is a complete lie knowing what Paul really wrote here in Romans 8.

 

[Rufus]

The fact that you ask that question proves how little of the gospel you understand. You obviously think that man's moral duty or responsibility to God implies our inherent ability to fulfill that responsibility. It has never occurred to you, apparently, that those commands are designed to show us just how incapable we are and to get us to cry out to God to do for us what we cannot do. I mean what part of Rom 3:10-17 don't you get? Or Rom 8:8 for that matter? Did you conquer your sinful nature prior to believing the gospel and repenting of your sins? Did you actually change your sinful nature into something else?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

In Romans 8:21 Paul uses the koine Greek root form of to build for the word "creation." Genesis 1 is what God did, He built all things by His spoken Word. Romans 8:21 means All Created humans to become Children of God. Every human alive was created/root form of built by God.

21 in hope that the creation itself shall be freed from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

 

[Rufus]

Not going to even discuss this with you. I am tired of your lies.

Of course. Why would I expect the king of No Answers to suddenly change?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Of course. Why would I expect the king of No Answers to suddenly change?

You have presented only doctrine and no truth. You deny proven Scripture. If we were in person I would be casting you out!

 

[Rufus]

In Romans 8:21 Paul uses the koine Greek root form of to build for the word "creation." Genesis 1 is what God did, He built all things by His spoken Word. Romans 8:21 means All Created humans to become Children of God. Every human alive was created/root form of built by God.

21 in hope that the creation itself shall be freed from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

Yeah...and who subjected that creation to the bondage of corruption? Santa Claus? The Man in the Moon?

And who will free the entire creation from its bondage of corruption? You? Me? The Church? Who?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yeah...and who subjected that creation to the bondage of corruption? Santa Claus? The Man in the Moon?

And who will free the entire creation from its bondage of corruption? You? Me? The Church? Who?

You miss why it was allowed because you are BLIND!

 

[Rufus]

You have presented only biblical doctrine and no truth. You deny proven Scripture. If we were in person I would be casting you out!

FTFY! You Shirely are one confused dude.