Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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Nope. Not with the effectual call. Go back and read the Romans 8 passage you quoted earlier...and this time read it slowly and carefully, especially v.30.
Unbelievers who reject gospel truth have only received the external call of the gospel, not the inner, spiritual effectual call. Many are [externally] called, but few are chosen! Conversely, all those effectually called (ordained, appointed unto eternal life) WILL believe (Act 13:48). The effectually called are also loved by God (Jude 1).
Nope. Not with the effectual call. Go back and read the Romans 8 passage you quoted earlier...and this time read it slowly and carefully, especially v.30.
Okay and thanks. I will do that tomorrow. Goodnight.
If you read the verses before verse 27, specifically verses 20-21 you will see why Adam was allowed to sin.
Romans 8:
20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who subjected it,
21 in hope that the creation itself shall be freed from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
Verse 21 specifically shows us that God hoped for creation itself to be FREED from Bondage and become children of God.
So Election is for EVERYONE/ALL of Creation.
If that doesn't prove the Reformed doctrine incorrect nothing does.
I don’t understand what you mean, brother. I believe verses 20 and 21 look forward to the time when Christ returns and the Millennial kingdom and finally, the Eternity come to pass—when creation will be perfect again as it was in the first earth age. This is the hope we have as Christians and what we wait for.
Do you mean the twelve disciples that Jesus chose to be with Him during His ministry?
Agree, we cannot take the chosen disciples and apply this to Christian doctrine. Bad Bible study.
I believe this is talking about Christians/the Elect/all followers and disciples of the Lord. This is the reason that we plant seeds and share the Gospel with others.
For those who have just come in and don’t know what we’re talking about, we are discussing Jesus’ prayer to His Father shortly before His crucifixion in chapter 17.
Greetings, siblings all…. May I break in?
Let’s discuss John 17 where Jesus prays for His disciples. I’ll go ahead and post the whole chapter so that we can hear Jesus’ beautiful prayer to His Father.
John 17:
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. "For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. "And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. "But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. "O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
""I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. "For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me."
"Have given" is a past action with continuing effects in the present. These are not people who will belong to Christ in the future. The were given to Christ at the beginning of His ministry and remain with him up to this point. This includes Judas Iscariot. This prayer is also for Judas Iscariot. Judas believed the Old Testament and was trying to follow it when he was called. Judas learned during his timem with Jesus, that Jesus had come from God and was sent by God. Judas knew Jesus' teaching and went out with the other eleven to preach, heal, and deliver from demons.
""I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. "
Judas is included here. This was Jesus' desire for Judas and the other eleven at this time. He hoped Judas would surrender to the truth he had been given and had kept, that is that he still remembered. Jesus wanted Judas to be sanctified in/by that truth.
"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."
"Now Jesus talks about those who "will believe in Me through their word". Now Jesus takes the desires He has just expressed regarding the twelve, and is praying that the same blessings would be extended to those who hear the gospel from the twelve and believe, that they would be included in the unity of the community walking in the Way. Jesus say that He "has given" the twelve the glory the Father "has given" Jesus while on earth, (both in the perfect tense) so that (hina) they (including Jus=das Iscariot) have been able to teach the same message and do the same miracles, and with the intention/desire that the twelve (including Judas) would continue being (present subjuctive: Osin) "having been made perfectly unified ones" (perfect participle teteleiOmenoi eis heis) so that world may keep on knowing (present subjunctive ginOskEi) that (hoti) you sent me (apeseilas me: aorist active indicative) and loved them (aorist active indicative, EgapEsas autous) just as (kathOs) you loved me (EgapEsas me aorist active indicative). This desire for the twelve to be unified was real, but it had not eventuated in practice yet, with their infighting over who of them was the greatest..
"Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. "O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."[
Who are "they also whom you gave me"? This gave is in the present perfect tense. It is those who were given to Jesus zat the beginning of His ministry. He wants them to be with Him in heaven, where Jesus is, after their deaths and beholding His glory.
Keep in mind that Jesus expressing a desire that something be the case does not mean that it became the case.
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Niki7
Guest
God certainly does "not love everyone in the world" in the familial sense. There are far too many scriptures that teach that God hates sin and the sinner. And the reason he hates non-elect sinners is because their hearts are literally wellsprings of evil. In other words, man IS evil. Man is an evil being. Sin, therefore, cannot be separated from the sinner, except by God's appointed Mediator who stands in the gap between God and Man, and who takes the sinner's sins upon himself and bears them in his body, and not only that but transforms the sinner's heart by turning them from evil so that they may love what is good and desire to actually do it. Having said that does not imply, however, that God himself is a hate-filled being. Not at all! God is certainly a benevolent being who makes his sun shine on the good and the evil, and his rain, as well, to fall on both. If it weren't for his common grace none us would be here having this discussion. God himself is love...but just as he has given his image-bearers the capacity to hate what is wrong, so, too, he has the capacity to hate with a holy hatred all evil and sources of evil.
We should also understand that God does not hate with impure, imperfect human passions. God is not like us! He hates with a holy hatred because sin is utterly repulsive and abhorrent to him. His eyes are too pure to even look upon evil! Evil cannot dwell with God! Just as his love is pure, so too is his hatred pure; for it springs from his holiness. His hatred is as holy as his love is!
Here are several passages that teach us that God hates sin and sinner alike: Lev 26:30; Deut 25:16; Job 12:21-22; Ps 5:5-6; 11:5; 15:1-5; 31:6; 45:7; 73:18-20; 95:10-11; 101:3; Prov 3:32; 6:16-19; 2Chron 19:2; Lam 2:6-7; Hos 9:15; Nah 1:14; Dan 12:2; Rom 9:13
And the psalmist said of himself with respect to sinners: Ps 119:113, 158, 163; 139:21-22
Bottom line: All men are NOT the objects of God's love. Only special people, who God in eternity has chosen in Christ, for whom he has given his Son for no other reason than his good pleasure and his own name's sake. Therefore, God loves his chosen people conditionally -- on the condition that they be identified with and united with his Son whom God, by his sacrificial love for his people, sent into this world to atone their sins.
And a word of exhortation: Speaking for myself, I am extremely hesitant to ascribe any activity to God that obviously would be contrary to his holy nature. I would no more say that God loves all sinners than I would that he loves sin; for such statements in my mind would be blasphemous. I caution all, therefore, to be slow to speak and quick to hear God's Word (Jas 1:19).
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Niki7
Guest
@ selahsays
You know, you have not actually answered what I asked you. Rather you are continuing to explain your viewpoint. Obviously, people are going to read what you wrote and see what I saw. You say you are not persuaded by Calvinism but then you create 2 posts in response to me, that illustrate otherwise. So here again, is what I asked of you and at this point, I think an explanation would be helpful because I find what you state somewhat confusing in its conclusions.
With regards to the post in the middle:
It seems you may be trying to reconcile elect with choice with regards to salvation as you indicate in the second post above.
How do you identify what you say are the elect as separate from those you apparently say are not the elect but are saved
I know what Jesus prayed, but truly I do not see where what He said indicates two classes of Christian...those you identify as the elect sent to spread the gospel to non-elects That would indicate 2 classes of Christian as per your understanding.
Who are the elect you state have been sent and are a mission from God? We all have same instructions found in scripture
You know, you have not actually answered what I asked you. Rather you are continuing to explain your viewpoint. Obviously, people are going to read what you wrote and see what I saw. You say you are not persuaded by Calvinism but then you create 2 posts in response to me, that illustrate otherwise. So here again, is what I asked of you and at this point, I think an explanation would be helpful because I find what you state somewhat confusing in its conclusions.
With regards to the post in the middle:
It seems you may be trying to reconcile elect with choice with regards to salvation as you indicate in the second post above.
How do you identify what you say are the elect as separate from those you apparently say are not the elect but are saved
I know what Jesus prayed, but truly I do not see where what He said indicates two classes of Christian...those you identify as the elect sent to spread the gospel to non-elects That would indicate 2 classes of Christian as per your understanding.
Who are the elect you state have been sent and are a mission from God? We all have same instructions found in scripture