Why didn’t Jonah just jump off the boat?

[PaulThomson]

Jesus was never in the clutches of satan when He left His body and was down in hell.

1 Peter 3:18,19
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Jesus suffered on the Cross while He was still in His Body, after that we have no record in scripture of Jesus suffering torment at the hands of the devil after He left His Body.

1 Peter 3:18-19 does not say when exactly after His death the Lord went in the Spirit to preach to the spirits in prison. So, I would say that your absolute certainty is somewhat unfounded. He could have gone after His resurrection, since Mt. 28:52-52 says some dead were raised after His resurrection and visited family. Also, Zec. 3 describes what seems to me to be Jesus after His resurrection Sunday meeting with Mary Magdalene, ascended to the Father still clothed in our sin, where He seems to receive back the glory He had had with the Father before the world began. And Ps 18 describes Jesus being held by an enemy too strong for him until God reached down and releases his soul from Satan's captivity. So, though we are looking at the same texts, we might have spomwhat different perspectives on what they are saying.

What are the presuppositions that undergird your conviction that Jesus was not suffering between His death and resurrection, as one voluntarily bearing the sin of the world would be expected to suffer after death?

 

[PaulThomson]

Anytime I have heard this preached it ends with Christ became the very first to be born again. Is that how you read and understand this doctrine of him becoming sin itself then paying the price in hell?

I would tend towards taking "He became sin" in the same way as in the story of the Prince and the Pauper" the pauper became a prince". Christ was treated by God and devils and men as a sinner even though he was perfectly righteous.

From my perspective, God holds all things together that without Him would fly apart in fervent heat and God mercifully limits the reach of evil actors so they cannot do all their heart desires. His judgment seems to be to give the rebel what He wants. He demands God out of His life, and so God abandons the rebel for a season to the destructive powers God had been holding back.

God had shielded Jesus from demonic and human attack throughout His life, but when the High Priest pronounced Him accursed, God took away Christ's protection and allowed men and demons to execute their desires to destroy the Son, within the limitations set down by prophecies. For example, they could not break a bone, nor kill him other than by crucifixion.

Jesus is the first-born from the dead. The first to be raised and given an immortal human body.

 

[lovejoypeaceetc]

It may be that Jesus was metaphorically sun-bathing in a deck chair in paradise drinking Iced tea with the penitent thief while he was waiting for His time to resurrect. However, it seems to me more likely from the messianic psalms like Ps.18, that He, as the world's sin bearing scapegoat, was being subjected to the demonic torments that a condemned sinner would be subject to, up until the time the Father and Holy Spirit reached down into hades and ripped His soul out of satan's clutches and put it back into the body in the tomb..

It sounds like he was in agony but an agony full of hope - Acts 2.24
https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=ESV|strong=G5604&options=VHNUG

 

[Stan_the_Man]

1 Peter 3:18-19 does not say when exactly after His death the Lord went in the Spirit to preach to the spirits in prison. So, I would say that your absolute certainty is somewhat unfounded.

Those being held in hell, both chambers (read the account of the rich man and Lazarus)

We know He went to both chambers because He went to the lowest hell (Psalms 86:13)

ascended to the Father still clothed in our sin

Ha ha, Jesus did not take our sin to Heaven!

He took His shed Blood to Heaven to place on the mercy seat which pays for salvation

Hebrews 9:23-25
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

Psalms 18:28 says "For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness" is not talking about Jesus since he never had any darkness because He was never a sinner and never became corrupt. (Psalms 16:10)

describes Jesus being held by an enemy too strong for him until God reached down and releases his soul from Satan's captivity

You are reading in to Psalms 18 things is does not say.

Jesus only suffered on the Cross in His soul and in His Body, not His Spirit as He never became corrupt.

Psalms 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

He never became a sinner as some false teachers claim, and as such was not in satan's power when he was in hell preaching to the spirits in prison.

Had He been under satan's power while being in hell, the devil would never have allowed Him to preach the Gospel to the spirits in hell as satan would have been in control of what Jesus did and didn't do which was not the case

Isaiah 53:10,11
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

What are the presuppositions

Your presuppositions were brought to you by false teachers such as Kenneth Copeland who teach satan tortured Jesus in hell and that Jesus did not preach to the spirits in prison as God's Word says.

You got your presuppositions from false teachers who suggest Jesus became corrupt which is a lie the devil is peddling.

 

[stilllearning]

I would tend towards taking "He became sin" in the same way as in the story of the Prince and the Pauper" the pauper became a prince". Christ was treated by God and devils and men as a sinner even though he was perfectly righteous.

From my perspective, God holds all things together that without Him would fly apart in fervent heat and God mercifully limits the reach of evil actors so they cannot do all their heart desires. His judgment seems to be to give the rebel what He wants. He demands God out of His life, and so God abandons the rebel for a season to the destructive powers God had been holding back.

God had shielded Jesus from demonic and human attack throughout His life, but when the High Priest pronounced Him accursed, God took away Christ's protection and allowed men and demons to execute their desires to destroy the Son, within the limitations set down by prophecies. For example, they could not break a bone, nor kill him other than by crucifixion.

Jesus is the first-born from the dead. The first to be raised and given an immortal human body.

Thanks for the reply I was curious as to how you read it wondering if other teachings may be involved. So I reckon to get a better understanding of Christ suffering at the hands of demons and Satan in hell.

How did they get there? When Christ casts out the demons they asked did he come to judge them before their time and ask to be allowed to be cast into pigs?

We find Satan present here on earth for the temptation of Christ at the start of his ministry. We find him present on earth at the finish as he enters into Judas. We are warned that the devil roams about looking whom he may devour. When he is cast out of heaven in Rev 12 he is cast unto the earth. We finally see him put in chains for a thousand years, loosed then judged and cast in the lake of fire.

So lets go with your argument that Christ was in hell. Does Satan and demons traverse back and forth between hell and earth? Is he allowed to go there then leave?

So admittedly I am not aware of any scripture that places Satan or demons in hell, but honestly could be I just never read it. Or just totally missed the connection. So I admit I have not read such so am open to hear how they got in hell.

 

[PaulThomson]

Thanks for the reply I was curious as to how you read it wondering if other teachings may be involved. So I reckon to get a better understanding of Christ suffering at the hands of demons and Satan in hell.

How did they get there? When Christ casts out the demons they asked did he come to judge them before their time and ask to be allowed to be cast into pigs?

We find Satan present here on earth for the temptation of Christ at the start of his ministry. We find him present on earth at the finish as he enters into Judas. We are warned that the devil roams about looking whom he may devour. When he is cast out of heaven in Rev 12 he is cast unto the earth. We finally see him put in chains for a thousand years, loosed then judged and cast in the lake of fire.

So lets go with your argument that Christ was in hell. Does Satan and demons traverse back and forth between hell and earth? Is he allowed to go there then leave?

So admittedly I am not aware of any scripture that places Satan or demons in hell, but honestly could be I just never read it. Or just totally missed the connection. So I admit I have not read such so am open to hear how they got in hell.

It seems from scripture that Satan had access onto earth during Adam's time in Eden, since he tempted Eve. And still had access into heaven at the time of Job where he joined God's council and challenged Job's sincerity as one seduced out of Job by God's exceeding great blessings on him; and if Zec. 3 is a prophetic vision, Satan still had access into heaven when Jesus rose to the Father as the first fruits from the dead on Easter Sunday after meeting Mary Magdalene. After the 12 returned from preaching the kingdom and healing the sick and casting out demons, Jesus said He saw Satan fall like lightning, maybe in an encouraging prophetic vision regarding the effect that His sinless surrender to the will of sinful men and demons would have. From that time, I would say, Satan has had no access into heaven and is limited to the earth's atmosphere, as the prince of the power of the air, and the earth's surface and the underworld. When Christ returns, Revelation indicates that he will be further restricted to only the underworld for the 1000 year reign.,
So as I see it, demons can move between the atmosphere and the earth's centre at this time. Limiting demos' mobility up, does not restrict their movement down. So, I see nothing in scripture that would preclude demons from moving within those specified limitations. There seems to be a special prison for demons called Tartarus or the abyss, where demons are held until released by God. And Jesus spoke about the unforgiving being handed over to the tormentors who may be demons moving about in th underworld but locked out of Paradise.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

It seems from scripture that Satan had access onto earth during Adam's time in Eden, since he tempted Eve. And still had access into heaven at the time of Job where he joined God's council and challenged Job's sincerity as one seduced out of Job by God's exceeding great blessings on him; and if Zec. 3 is a prophetic vision, Satan still had access into heaven when Jesus rose to the Father as the first fruits from the dead on Easter Sunday after meeting Mary Magdalene. After the 12 returned from preaching the kingdom and healing the sick and casting out demons, Jesus said He saw Satan fall like lightning, maybe in an encouraging prophetic vision regarding the effect that His sinless surrender to the will of sinful men and demons would have. From that time, I would say, Satan has had no access into heaven and is limited to the earth's atmosphere, as the prince of the power of the air, and the earth's surface and the underworld. When Christ returns, Revelation indicates that he will be further restricted to only the underworld for the 1000 year reign.,
So as I see it, demons can move between the atmosphere and the earth's centre at this time. Limiting demos' mobility up, does not restrict their movement down. So, I see nothing in scripture that would preclude demons from moving within those specified limitations. There seems to be a special prison for demons called Tartarus or the abyss, where demons are held until released by God. And Jesus spoke about the unforgiving being handed over to the tormentors who may be demons moving about in th underworld but locked out of Paradise.

Theres no clear proof that satan tempted Eve.

What there is, Iis logic that it wasn't satan,

And There also a slight possibility it was satan

But again basing a whole premise on logical presumption, is a wee bit silly.

It would be absurd to think God had sent Satan to earth to chastise him and correct him.

In the story of Adam and eve God corrected the serpent and punished the serpent.

Scripture says that satan has been Judged and there is no truth in him, which means his punishment has been served, and he can not be corrected as there is no truth in him.

Well God corrected the serpent.

The other reality is God told his children to be as wise as serpents,

Was God telling his children to be as wise as satan who has no truth in him.

I mean surely someone who has no truth in him is not wise.

As it seems because satan is also described as a serpent, the logical presumption is he must have been the serpent in the bible.

But if we look at what's being said here, theres one than one type of serpent.

Would you agree with this

 

[PaulThomson]

Theres no clear proof that satan tempted Eve.

What there is, Iis logic that it wasn't satan,

And There also a slight possibility it was satan

But again basing a whole premise on logical presumption, is a wee bit silly.

It would be absurd to think God had sent Satan to earth to chastise him and correct him.

In the story of Adam and eve God corrected the serpent and punished the serpent.

Scripture says that satan has been Judged and there is no truth in him, which means his punishment has been served, and he can not be corrected as there is no truth in him.

Well God corrected the serpent.

The other reality is God told his children to be as wise as serpents,

Was God telling his children to be as wise as satan who has no truth in him.

I mean surely someone who has no truth in him is not wise.

As it seems because satan is also described as a serpent, the logical presumption is he must have been the serpent in the bible.

But if we look at what's being said here, theres one than one type of serpent.

Would you agree with this

No. Rev. 12:9 says "... that old serpent, called the devil, and satan. which deceives the whole world..."
And Rev. 20:2 says, "... that old serpent, which is the devil, and satan... "

Satan was judged and condemned to crawl on his belly and eat dust. From my perspective this is figurative language. Satan chose to use a snake to deceive Eve, so God formulated His punishment in metaphorically serpentine terms but not to be taken literally.

To crawl on one's belly is to move driven by the basest of instincts, and to eat dust is to find no satisfaction or benefit from the food one eats, namely the beliefs one embraces and the desires one acts upon..

 

[Stan_the_Man]

satan was judged and condemned to crawl on his belly

Yep, he's under my feet!

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

No. Rev. 12:9 says "... that old serpent, called the devil, and satan. which deceives the whole world..."
And Rev. 20:2 says, "... that old serpent, which is the devil, and satan... "

Satan was judged and condemned to crawl on his belly and eat dust. From my perspective this is figurative language. Satan chose to use a snake to deceive Eve, so God formulated His punishment in metaphorically serpentine terms but not to be taken literally.

To crawl on one's belly is to move driven by the basest of instincts, and to eat dust is to find no satisfaction or benefit from the food one eats, namely the beliefs one embraces and the desires one acts upon..

See now that is in revelation 20.2.

As far the bible say he walking around like a roaring lion, so I hardly call that crawling on your belly.

I'm not being silly when I say that or being clever with you.

But that's what it says.

But could you tell me how else your linking rev 20.2 to the garden of eden

As far as scriptures Goes Satan can't be corrected because he has no truth in him


So could you answer why God corrected this serpent into the bible.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
No. Rev. 12:9 says "... that old serpent, called the devil, and satan. which deceives the whole world..."
And Rev. 20:2 says, "... that old serpent, which is the devil, and satan... "

Satan was judged and condemned to crawl on his belly and eat dust. From my perspective this is figurative language. Satan chose to use a snake to deceive Eve, so God formulated His punishment in metaphorically serpentine terms but not to be taken literally.

To crawl on one's belly is to move driven by the basest of instincts, and to eat dust is to find no satisfaction or benefit from the food one eats, namely the beliefs one embraces and the desires one acts upon..

As far the bible say he walking around like a roaring lion, so I hardly call that crawling on your belly.

To crawl on one's belly is to move driven by the basest of instincts,
That's what lions do too.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

PaulThomson said:
No. Rev. 12:9 says "... that old serpent, called the devil, and satan. which deceives the whole world..."
And Rev. 20:2 says, "... that old serpent, which is the devil, and satan... "

Satan was judged and condemned to crawl on his belly and eat dust. From my perspective this is figurative language. Satan chose to use a snake to deceive Eve, so God formulated His punishment in metaphorically serpentine terms but not to be taken literally.

To crawl on one's belly is to move driven by the basest of instincts, and to eat dust is to find no satisfaction or benefit from the food one eats, namely the beliefs one embraces and the desires one acts upon..

To crawl on one's belly is to move driven by the basest of instincts,
That's what lions do too.

And You've still haven't answered the questions i asked you
,

All you've done is repeat something you've said already that's not clear evidence that the serpent in the garden of eden was satan

Why is it you've not addressed the questions I asked you.

When you get a belief stuck in your head.

Do know what makes you believe it.

Well I'll tell you. It because the brain remembers what more easy to rationalise.

And once the inner conscious has it visualised it sticks.

That all you have son is a stuck visualization

 

[Stan_the_Man]

It seems from scripture that Satan had access onto earth during Adam's time in Eden

We see in the Book of Hebrews that Jesus has
not assumed full control over this world yet:

Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet. for in that
He put all in subjection under Him, He left nothing that is not put
under Him. But now we see not yet all things put under Him

And, we also see that the devil is called the god of this world which
will not change until Jesus returns to start His 1000 year reign and
throws the devil and his demons in to hell.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which
believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who
is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Obedience]

17 When Jonah fell into the sea, the Lord chose a very big fish to swallow Jonah. He was in the stomach of the fish for three days and three nights.

Then after three days and three nights,An unrepentant Nineveh in Jonah's eyes,Nineveh repented.Don't you think it's a bit of a coincidence?

 

[PaulThomson]

And You've still haven't answered the questions i asked you
,

All you've done is repeat something you've said already that's not clear evidence that the serpent in the garden of eden was satan

Why is it you've not addressed the questions I asked you.

When you get a belief stuck in your head.

Do know what makes you believe it.

Well I'll tell you. It because the brain remembers what more easy to rationalise.

And once the inner conscious has it visualised it sticks.

That all you have son is a stuck visualization

Reply to which question? Does God want us to be as wise as a serpent but gentle as a dove? Yes. We are to be simple in regard to what is evil, but not ignorant of the devil's devices. God does not want us to be less wise than the serpent.

 

[Magenta]

From my perspective, God holds all things together

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him (Jesus)
all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and
in Him all things hold together. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning
and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.

Nehemiah 9:6 plus John 1:3

 

[Mem]

Jesus did not preach to dead people when he died. "by which" ( a prepositional phrase modifying the verb, as in how He preached, and speaking of the subject Jesus) He preached to souls in prison..." Souls in prison here are metaphors of those on death row, awaiting their exacting of their judgment, and "when Noah was preparing the ark" is a prepositional phrase modifying the time period, the when, of the verb, preached.

 

[Mem]

It took me over 40 years to sort through this mess that man's tradition has jumbled up, but I'm giving it to y'all for free.

 

[PaulThomson]

It took me over 40 years to sort through this mess that man's tradition has jumbled up, but I'm giving it to y'all for free.

I appreciate your different perspective. We need to be able to see things from others' perspectives to get a more rounded understanding of scripture. But it may take more to persuade other perspectives that what you believe you see is reliable than simply claiming to be correct.

 

[FredVB]

I will accept that. It is a mysterious thing to accept, that Jesus went into Hades to preach, while there are no other passages that can be used to support that interpretation. So prison really can be understood differently. What could those who cannot change from their circumstances have to gain from being preached at? At any rate everything for full atonement was accomplished already. The resurrection ahead was to seal the needed basis for all believers.