Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
- Thread starter MerSee
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No, you are of the most congenial of those with a different view than mine. And I was actually aghast that my post worked out to have followed yours out of all the others which it could have, with fear that you might take it as directed to you personally. I just wanted to express this lingering question that remains as the reason for my misgivings in accepting the alternative view in general.Thanks for the reply. I thought that maybe I had offended you in some way.
For the record, it is my opinion that your personality is quite lovely.
To illustrate my question, let's say we choose a random person to tell "Jesus died for you," and the reality is that this person happens to actually be someone that God hates. It is argued that we should go ahead and speak this to everyone because we do not know whether they are of the elect or not, but this suggests that it is okay that we might lie, as long as we do not realize we are lying...
So, can you see why, then, that I would hesitate to adopt this approach?
So, can you see why, then, that I would hesitate to adopt this approach?
You are correct! We do not know what is in the heart of man.
Maybe we should therefore take a slightly different approach when talking to others.
In our conversation with them, we should a) try to determine are they Christian or not. If we feel that they are not believers, then we can b) begin to explain what God has done for us and how He has changed our life. We can also c) invite them to our church to hear His word proclaimed. The invite may need to be repeated many times. So rather than saying "He died for you", perhaps it is better to say "only He can save you, which is true".
I think that item “c” above may be the most important. For, how can you believe what you have not heard? But since we are unable to change them, we must rely on God and realize that only He can change the heart. This could result in the person being called, but He could also use this to harden them!
It must be tough to be a “minister of the word” and realize that many are called but few will come! However, when success does come, what joy must fill their heart watching the change take place.
So...you don't believe that man's will is free?You are like your Calvinistic comrades in that you keep falsely accusing me of things I have not done.
You pretend it is me who is stuck somewhere (between a rock and a hard place?) because you cannot
wrap your head around the very simple fact that I do not believe man's will is free. I have availed myself
of Scriptures that answer your question and posted them multiple times. Here, if you have eyes to see:
Jesus’ words in John 6:65
1. Does that mean that you believe unregenerate man is dead and his will is in bondage to what: his sinful nature?
2. If so, can man change his essence/nature?
3. Do you think God grants that grace (enabling power) to everyone in the world?
4. And do you think that the enabling power of God is the impartation of life to a dead soul (Col 2:13)? If not, what is it?
And, my, my...are you feeling okay?
You quote Jn 6:65 in the NIV? Of course, the KJV is no help either to NRs:John 6:65
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
KJV
And not only that but Col 2:13 in the NIV, too? I thought you were a KJV kinda gal because you don't like the NIV?
No one CAN...CAN...CAN...No one. NOT ANYONE! Jn 6:65 Harmonizes nicely with Rom 8:8 and Jer 13:23, doesn't it?
One other thing: You balked recently at the idea that unregenerate man has no ability to believe the Gospel because it's impossible to make choices that are contrary to our nature. You essentially said that God would not have "made" man that way and at the same time hold him responsible for not believing the gospel. But now....you're okay with sinners' will being not being free and in bondage to something? Why is that?
Exactly. The Gospel is filled with profound paradoxes. Another one is that while it is tough to see someone reject the offer, at the same time all pressure is off the Reformed evangelizer because he or she knows that ultimately it is God who gives the increase. All we have to do is faithfully proclaim the truth! God will sovereignly do the rest...or not.
And I never tell anyone that God died for them because that would be an unbiblical statement. There are far too many passages in the bible that tell us specifically for whom he died and that he died only for "many" -- not each and every person in the world. NRs pervert the term "many" to make it say "everyone". I could not do that in good conscience.
You're half way there. Scripture teaches that the children of God have been born of the Spirit and the Word! The Word alone is not sufficient! What can the dead possibly change? They need life imparted to them first (John 3:2-15; Jn. 6:65; 11:26: Col 2:13, etc.).
And if you want irrefutable proof of what I've just stated, all we have to do is look at the Old Covenant people of God -- Israel! They were the only ones on this planet whom God favored with his Word. They were given the Law. They were given the prophets of God. They were given the Wisdom Books. They had the temple sacrifices and the priesthood. They were recipients of God's covenants. They had all these EXTERNAL gifts given to them. They were the most privileged people on earth! Yet, how did that work out for them? Were not both Israel and Judah apostate nations, both conquered by pagan nations? Wasn't Israel again judged severely in 70 A.D. -- and in that process God destroyed the very religion he ordained, i.e. Old Covenant Judaism?
Now...Contrast the conditional Old Covenant promises with the unconditional New found in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36 which unilaterally promise INTERNAL, EFFECTUAL gifts. It's no wonder the writer of Hebrews said that the New Covenant is founded on better promises (Heb 8:6)!
As it is written:
1 Cor 10:11
11 These things happened to them [Israelites] as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
NIV
Did you catch that: "warnings"!? It's no wonder that Jesus is the contrasting antitype to Israel!
Didn’t I say the same thing as you? I agree with all the scriptures you’ve posted. So, if you don’t mind, and as succinctly as you can, tell me where we differ. Okay?
…but not everyone will come to Christ —beginning in the first age, even. Some followed Satan when he rebelled. Those who followed Christ were chosen and elected.
I quoted you in my 2387. You said nothing about the Holy Spirit, which is why I said, "You're half way there."
Exactly! All the elect will assuredly come to Christ (Jn 6:37), which are also the people for whom Christ prayed in John 17.
Begs the question; for I, too, believe what it says. But what do you think those two verses are saying?
Magenta,
Good to see you posting in defense as to what you believe.
Continue to stick to what you believe and defend yourself. Do not let anyone shake your faith or your walk with God. You know in your heart what you believe concerning our creator, so don't let others play a word game to convince you otherwise.
I would also place myself into the reformed camp of understanding. However, I do not believe it is perfect! We all have much to learn. In other words, “we all see through a glass dimly”. The best that we can hope for, in our interaction with others and God, is to grow and strengthen our faith as well as the faith of those we interact with.
Thank you, BillyBob, I appreciate your post to me, especially after just having read another from someone else, who talks in circles and continually falsely accuses me of having done things I have not and said things I have not. It is no wonder such people pervert the simple truth of the gospel, when they show with almost every post that they fail to comprehend plainly spoken English. I am in need of more grace toward such people, for I have very little patience with liars.