THE REAL BAPTISM

[FollowerofShiloh]

I thought this thread was about water Baptism. Paul confirms what Peter said in Acts 2:38 and explains what happens best by being baptized (into Christ/Peter's words Jesus) buried (under water) and then raising up like a form of resurrection.

3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life

This also confirms Peter's Acts 2:38
38 And Peter said to them: Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

I'll pass because much of what carm teaches is false doctrine.

Once I find out a ministry is involved in teaching false doctrine, I don't pay any further attention to them.

The old saying about "chew the meat and spit out the bones" came from the devil

If the meat has poison in it, we should not eat it at all.

The bottom line for me is test what the article says with what scripture says. Are you a Oneness Pentecostal?

 

[wolfwint]

They did expect to speak in tongues because of what happened in Acts Chapter 2, when the baptism of the Holy Ghost was 1st poured out.



If you are TRULY baptized with the Holy Ghost and Fire, which John spoke of, and which took place on the day of Pentecost, just like everyone there, you will speak in tongues as a sign of this baptism.

This is biblical truth. Find me Scripture to deny it.

Well this is a biblical truth for Acts 2,8,10 and 19 as sign for the jews.
But the teaching you are talking from starts in 1900 in Topeka.
If you would be right, then there is a around 1850 years gap in church historie. Because it was not taught and practised during the churchhistorie. Non of the churchfathers or founders of the denominations had this baptising or taught it. Yes, there is tonguespeaking mentioned in Evangelisation and Mission Events. And you can find it in cults. But you could not find it in bible centered denomination. And this I woukd expect if it would be that what you claime Acts 2,8,10 and 19 is.

And no, they did not expect it, there were surprised. F.w. read Acts 10, 44-46.

 

[tylerbones1313]

Well this is a biblical truth for Acts 2,8,10 and 19 as sign for the jews.
But the teaching you are talking from starts in 1900 in Topeka.
If you would be right, then there is a around 1850 years gap in church historie. Because it was not taught and practised during the churchhistorie. Non of the churchfathers or founders of the denominations had this baptising or taught it. Yes, there is tonguespeaking mentioned in Evangelisation and Mission Events. And you can find it in cults. But you could not find it in bible centered denomination. And this I woukd expect if it would be that what you claime Acts 2,8,10 and 19 is.

And no, they did not expect it, there were surprised. F.w. read Acts 10, 44-46.

They were surprised, but not at them speaking in tongues. For the Jews that were with Peter knew everyone who was baptized in the Holy Ghost would speak in tongues, just like at the beginning. The surprise was that they thought the empowering of the spirit was for Jews only, astonished that the Gentiles also received the same gift.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

The bottom line for me is test what the article says with what scripture says. Are you a Oneness Pentecostal?

Nope, I'm not oneness pentecostal which has nothing to do with associating with known false teachers / ministries.

If you send someone to a known false teacher / ministry and they get deceived and go to hell, their blood is on your hands. That is causing others to stumble

 

[Artios1]

No trust me you want this fire it is his fire not this worlds fire it burns and surges within you it gives you such strength and such fiery resolve in him it is ablosultely drowining you with fire and you feel his power flowing through your veins

I am not talking about feelings …I am talking about the context of this verse which is referencing the unjust in Revelation….as per verse 12 “will burn up” = katakaiō = utterly burn up.

 

[Blain]

I am not talking about feelings …I am talking about the context of this verse which is referencing the unjust in Revelation….as per verse 12 “will burn up” = katakaiō = utterly burn up.

I am not talking about feelings either this is an actual aspect of God the baptism of fire if this is not something you understand then you have not recieved it

 

[wolfwint]

They were surprised, but not at them speaking in tongues. For the Jews that were with Peter knew everyone who was baptized in the Holy Ghost would speak in tongues, just like at the beginning. The surprise was that they thought the empowering of the spirit was for Jews only, astonished that the Gentiles also received the same gift.

So speaking in tongues was very normal for them? And they expectet to got this gift? But they did not expect to got the Holy Spirit?
Come on, this is not logic.
Both belongs together. Speaking in tongues was the sign, that they received the Holy Spirit. And no One of the gathered expectet this. Not Peter, not Cornelius and his household.

 

[tylerbones1313]

So speaking in tongues was very normal for them? And they expectet to got this gift? But they did not expect to got the Holy Spirit?
Come on, this is not logic.
Both belongs together. Speaking in tongues was the sign, that they received the Holy Spirit. And no One of the gathered expectet this. Not Peter, not Cornelius and his household.

According to Acts 10, the Jewish audience likely expected those receiving the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues, but they weren't expecting Gentiles (Cornelius and his household) to receive the Holy Spirit at all.


Acts 2: The first instance of speaking in tongues occurs in Acts 2, where the Holy Spirit descends upon the disciples, enabling them to speak in languages they hadn't learned. This event served as a sign to spread the gospel across language barriers.
Gift of the Holy Spirit: The expectation for speaking in tongues arose from the association with receiving the Holy Spirit, seen in Acts 2.


Expectation vs. Surprise: The response assumes the Jews expected the Gentiles to receive the Holy Spirit, but only doubted the sign (speaking in tongues).
Focus: The surprise for the Jews was that Gentiles, not typically included in God's chosen people, were receiving the Holy Spirit, not that speaking in tongues itself was unexpected.

Acts 10:44-46: 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

This passage is significant in the book of Acts, as it marks a pivotal moment in the early Christian church: the extension of the gift of the Holy Spirit to Gentile (non-Jewish) believers, demonstrating that the message of Jesus Christ and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit were intended for all people, regardless of ethnic or religious background.

This passage emphasizes the astonishment surrounding the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit, not the speaking in tongues itself.

 

[mailmandan]

Nope, I'm not oneness pentecostal which has nothing to do with associating with known false teachers / ministries.

Well I'm glad to at least hear that you are not a oneness pentecostal. They teach that speaking in tongues is a necessary manifestation of the Holy Spirit and without it, a person is not truly saved. They also teach that one must be water baptized using the formula "in Jesus' name" only instead of "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" or else you will not be saved. They reject the Trinitarian formula because they reject the Trinity.

If you send someone to a known false teacher / ministry and they get deceived and go to hell, their blood is on your hands. That is causing others to stumble

That's extreme and over the top. Nothing in that article is deception or will send someone to hell. Also, I looked up CARM'S statement of faith and they teach that salvation is by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) They teach there is one God who is coeternal and coequal in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, (Genesis 1:26; Matthew 28:19; Acts 5:1-4; Colossians 2:9) so they do not deny that Jesus is God. (John 1:1-14) They teach the virgin birth of Christ, (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:35) the resurrection of Christ, (John 2:19; John 11:25; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and that the Bible is the only infallible, authoritative, and trustworthy word of God and rule for faith. (2 Timothy 3:16)

That is not deception, and neither is that going to send anyone to hell. People go to hell because they refuse to believe in Christ unto salvation (John 3:18) refuse to believe the gospel (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) by refusing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (Romans 1:16: 10:16)

 

[tylerbones1313]

They also teach that one must be water baptized using the formula "in Jesus' name" only instead of "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" or else you will not be saved. They reject the Trinitarian formula because they reject the Trinity.

Show me one instance in the Bible where they baptized using the trinitarian formula. Because there are multiple Scriptures where it is done in Jesus name or the Name of the Lord (Jesus).

 

[mailmandan]

Show me one instance in the Bible where they baptized using the trinitarian formula. Because there are multiple Scriptures where it is done in Jesus name or the Name of the Lord (Jesus).

Are you a oneness pentecostal? Do you believe that believers who were water baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit will not be saved? In regard to verses like Acts 10:48 and Acts 19:5, the phrase, “in the name of the Lord/in the name of the Lord Jesus" is not a reference to a baptismal formula but a reference to authority. (Acts 4:7-10; 5:28; 5:40; 9:27-28; 16:18 etc..). This phrase is used in the Bible as an expression of authority. In Matthew 28:19, Jesus specifically said to go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Do you disagree with Jesus here? To baptize in Jesus’ name, by His authority, is to say, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

 

[tylerbones1313]

Are you a oneness pentecostal? Do you believe that believers who were water baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit will not be saved? In regard to verses like Acts 10:48 and Acts 19:5, the phrase, “in the name of the Lord/in the name of the Lord Jesus" is not a reference to a baptismal formula but a reference to authority. (Acts 4:7-10; 5:28; 5:40; 9:27-28; 16:18 etc..). This phrase is used in the Bible as an expression of authority. In Matthew 28:19, Jesus specifically said to go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Do you disagree with Jesus here? To baptize in Jesus’ name, by His authority, is to say, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

Being a oneness pentecostal or not has nothing to do with the fact no one in the Bible was baptized in the Titles (Father, Son and Holy Ghost

 

[wolfwint]

According to Acts 10, the Jewish audience likely expected those receiving the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues, but they weren't expecting Gentiles (Cornelius and his household) to receive the Holy Spirit at all.


Acts 2: The first instance of speaking in tongues occurs in Acts 2, where the Holy Spirit descends upon the disciples, enabling them to speak in languages they hadn't learned. This event served as a sign to spread the gospel across language barriers.
Gift of the Holy Spirit: The expectation for speaking in tongues arose from the association with receiving the Holy Spirit, seen in Acts 2.


Expectation vs. Surprise: The response assumes the Jews expected the Gentiles to receive the Holy Spirit, but only doubted the sign (speaking in tongues).
Focus: The surprise for the Jews was that Gentiles, not typically included in God's chosen people, were receiving the Holy Spirit, not that speaking in tongues itself was unexpected.

Acts 10:44-46: 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

This passage is significant in the book of Acts, as it marks a pivotal moment in the early Christian church: the extension of the gift of the Holy Spirit to Gentile (non-Jewish) believers, demonstrating that the message of Jesus Christ and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit were intended for all people, regardless of ethnic or religious background.

This passage emphasizes the astonishment surrounding the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit, not the speaking in tongues itself.

Correct, and this alone was the purpose for this report.
According your view, then speaking in tongues was normal in the jewish culture?
I dont think so.
As you quote while Peter preached the Holy Spirit fallen on all who heared the word. There was no asking for the gift, there was no asking for the Spirit. It came without the could do anything against it. They also couly not deny.
If you take this event as example. Then this would be trough the whole churchhistorie till today the same.. Gospel is preached and the Holy Spirit fall on thhose who heared the word. But this is not so!!
What you are doing is create from an unique report an teaching.
Till 1900 no church or denomination taught that speaking in tongues is the sign that someone receives the Holy Spirit.
Thats why the called this movement pentecostal movement. If this would be taught before, then no need for giving this movement the name pentecostal movement.
Thats why I count this a false teaching.
It is also obvious that woman dominate and teaching special in pentecostal and charismatic movements. Althought bible speaks clear that is not the duty of woman to rule over man or to teach them.
Leads the Holy Spirit to disobey the word of God? I would say no.

 

[wolfwint]

Being a oneness pentecostal or not has nothing to do with the fact no one in the Bible was baptized in the Titles (Father, Son and Holy Ghost

So Matthew 28, 19 is not word of God?
✝ Matthew 28:19

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

Bible
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=kjv.BIBLE

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Show me one instance in the Bible where they baptized using the trinitarian formula. Because there are multiple Scriptures where it is done in Jesus name or the Name of the Lord (Jesus).

They Baptized how Paul explained it

Paul confirms what Peter said in Acts 2:38 and explains what happens best by being baptized (into Christ/Peter's words Jesus) buried (under water) and then raising up like a form of resurrection.

3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life

This also confirms Peter's Acts 2:38
38 And Peter said to them: Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The bottom line for me is test what the article says with what scripture says. Are you a Oneness Pentecostal?

Since this article is such a hot topic I went and looked at it. They're only accusing a Sect called UPC and making a general statement of oneness Pentecostal. So I looked up oneness Pentecostal and there's several of them different than the UPC. So I looked them up and it is only the UPC that makes this claim. So at best, this article is misleading because only 1 of the group of oneness Pentecostal makes this claim. But the article makes it appear they are all doing it.

 

[mailmandan]

Being a oneness pentecostal or not has nothing to do with the fact no one in the Bible was baptized in the Titles (Father, Son and Holy Ghost

Did you read ALL of post #192?

 

[CS1]

I said it was partly fulfilled.
As Paul had a near expection of the Lords coming. He did not knew that it longs around 2000 years.

please provide chapter and verse .

 

[wolfwint]

please provide chapter and verse .

rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. 24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil. 25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Israel had till today not the condition which is described in vers 22-27
Vers 28 said : afterward ......
So what Peter expierienced was a partly fulfillment. In Future it will be fullfilled. I see this in the beginning of the Millennium.