Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
- Thread starter MerSee
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There was a Calvinist here (haven't seen him for a while) who would swear up and down that I believed things
I did not and that I did not believe things I did even when I could show him a history of my posts spanning a
great deal of my time here proving that what he believed about what I believed was wrong. He never wavered.
Does that mean that I should take you off my NR watch list?
BTW, I did invite Reformed folks to participate in the poll/discussion. I'm a big fan of equal opportunity and all that... 
We know both parents are saved ultimately because the first set God created the first animal sacrifice, the second set God created the Ark, and ultimately both were appeased by the Death of Jesus.I would ask why my 2261 that deals with the Fall is illogical and what that has to do with Jn 3:17; but I don't have time to get entangled in the deep, dark webs of your mind. So, I'll just put you down that you chose an option off the map.
I dunno... I mean, I am not a huge fan of labels, and even some of the people who claim to be CalvinistsDoes that mean that I should take you off my NR watch list?
will say they are four pointers, as opposed to five. So... the point here being I do not believe God makes
it impossible for any to choose Him and then punishes them forever after for failing to choose Him.
To me that is the big red flag of Calvinistic thought. And Arminians are big on free will, which is a
sticking point with me also, because I do not believe man's will is free, since he is a slave to sin.
Jesus’ words in John 6:65
Adam was only the first of its (our) kind.
1 man's sin = all humanities sin just like 1 man's death = all humanities salvation (might be saved)
If it was fair what Adam did then God would not require a sacrifice to save His creation. So Adam caused all of us to be in debt to God before we ever existed. Look at Salvation, it's singular = 12 .......work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
If it were equal, the one man who causes all to sin, when that one man (was restored) should cause all men to be restored. But it doesn't, it takes the Death of God to restore us. So 1 man's sin causes all of man to be in sin. But now it takes the Death of God to restore all of men to salvation.
Even though it was the ultimate Plan of God, He has to Die to restore what 1 man did. God has to Die because of what 1 man did to everyone else. So ultimately, God did die for Adam, but He actually is Dying for the everyone else because of Adam.
My point is that it's not fair. But it was God's doing. He is the one who chose to have Adam represent us.
Agreed, but You and I did not choose Adam. Especially since he would sin and cause us to be in debt to God before we were ever born.
It was never ours to choose. God is sovereign. I only mention it because so many have said fairness is an attribute of God.
And I agree, but God is also fair or He would not have made Himself the solution to the problem Adam created.
So, then your real answer to my 2260 was option A. And your reason is that God provided "sin coverings" for them with the implied sacrifices of one or more innocent animals.
You and I don't get to choose a lot of things in life. Did you choose your parents? Where you were born? The gender you are? The economic status of your parents? Whether or not you had siblings, or how many, etc., etc.? I don't see where that makes life unfair or God unfair, especially since Adam came into this world with a distinct advantage that none of us had.
And even more than that! He also chose to not prohibit Adam's sin, which he could have if he had wanted to do so. But I disagree with you that God's choice of Adam was unfair. Why do you think so?
God could had just verbally forgave them without needing any sacrifice if that was His design. But by using how God designed sin offering, Adam got to see the innocent animal killed. Just like God made the Jews raise their own sheep, care for them, make sure they were not damaged and were spotless and then made them take that lamb they cared for to be killed for their sin. And why when we look at the Cross we see someone Innocent Died for us. Those kinds of lessons keeps us mentally aware of that we're not just punishing ourselves but those who have to die for us.
I dunno... I mean, I am not a huge fan of labels, and even some of the people who claim to be Calvinists
will say they are four pointers, as opposed to five. So... the point here being I do not believe God makes
it impossible for any to choose Him and then punishes them forever after for failing to choose Him.
To me that is the big red flag of Calvinistic thought. And Arminians are big on free will, which is a
sticking point with me also, because I do not believe man's will is free, since he is a slave to sin.
Jesus’ words in John 6:65
Interesting. You find yourself stuck between a rock and hard place, heh? You certainly sense the tension between the two thoughts. But if it helps any, I do not agree with the first part of you bolded statement. God didn't make Adam what he became. Adam made himself what he became.
So, it seems that you really need to find out what does it mean to be spiritually dead? What exactly happened to Adam when he died on the day he ate of the fruit?
No, I don't believe God could have. Sin needs to be punished, otherwise God would not be just.
And even more strongly disagree with your second statement I bolded. Jesus was not merely innocent! Jesus was the Righteous One of God who laid down his life for the unrighteous. If God only needed "innocent" one to atone for sins, he could have sacrificed anyone's innocent infant in the place of sinners! It is not Christ's "innocence" that is imputed to repentant sinners, it is nothing less than his RIGHTEOUSNESS! And there's a difference between innocence and righteousness! Jesus did not come into this world to merely fulfill all "innocence". He came to fulfill all righteousness *(Mat 3:15: Rom 5:18)! There is no such thing as "innocence" by faith, only righteousness by faith (Rom10:6). This is why the blood of [innocent] animals could never take away sins.
Most people believe unfairness is a pejorative, and it does in our time carry a negative connotation. But unfair simply means to treat people unequally. This is certainly true of God by your own admission.
God doesn't claim to be fair. He does claim to be just.
Anyone who is not a Roman Catholic is Reformed. What makes you think only exhaustive divine determinists are Reformed?
Interesting that you see it as being stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't see it as being stuck at all. And I did not say anything at all to you about God making Adam what he became. So many say things like, Adam was perfect. Eh. I don't see that in the text anywhere, do you? God saw His creation as good, and after Eve was created, very good. If Adam was perfect, would he have sinned? Jesus is perfect. He sinned not. The second Adam. The last Adam, not the first. Some even say A&E were immortal until they ate the forbidden fruit. My goodness. Where or how they come up with these conclusions is beyond me, and you know, go directly against what Scripture teaches. Others say they had eaten of the Tree of Life just to remain alive. How they wrangle that out of the text perplexes. Adam and Eve were of the natural world and Jesus was purposed from before the foundation of the world to be the propitiation for sin.