Are you pre-Trib, mid-Trib, or post-Trib?

[TheDivineWatermark]

Another CC member once explained the 144,000 and I agree with him.

He said the 144,000 are all the male babies from birth to 2 yrs old that were slaughtered in Bethlehem and surrounding towns by King Herod because he was trying to kill Jesus Christ.

It would seem odd (at least to me) to speak of "babies" (under 2 yrs of age) in the following way:


--"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins."

All the male babies that were killed by King Herod because of Jesus Christ are the servants of the Lord on Earth and currently in Heaven… they are the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14, in Heaven they are no longer babies.

One reason I reject such a notion, is the "chronology" matter:

Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1, making the point that what is going to be "SHOWn" to John (starting in 4:1) are said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (and which "things" lead up to His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19); this immediately eliminates any idea that those "things" started in the first century and supposedly unfolded upon the earth over the course of some near-2000 years, as the Historicists have it (and as other viewpoints do as well).






So, this is just two strikes against such an idea... for starters.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But as far as timing, Jesus defined the terms of the parable later in Matthew 13:39 saying the Harvest is the end of the world.

Have you considered that we/the Church which is His body are not a part of the "WHEAT" harvest?

(i.e. that there is "more than one" HARVEST [note: not more than one RAPTURE]--and thus "more than one" FIRSTFRUIT--both in Scripture and in nature)







[I've made a number of posts in the past on that subject]




P.S. the "harvest" in Matt13 says, "the end [singular] of the AGE [singular]"... not the end of the "world" But, yeah, that corresponds with His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom "age" ("the age [singular] to come" Mt12:32)

 

[Charlie_2024]

I don't know how people believe that it is happening right now. The Lord Jesus is suppose to physically reign during the Millennial age and that's not happening right now. *Shrug*


🏕️

Remember the fact that Satan is currently bound, so He can't harm Christians. We are currently enjoying the millennium, where Satan is bound and can't do anything to stop the gospel from going out and saving millions of souls.
The Holy Spirit is currently preventing Satan from destroying the world. But when the Holy Spirit releases Satan and opens the pit, all the Demons will come out and torment and kill those who don't have the seal of God on their foreheads.
So it's quite evident that we are living in the prophesized millennium, or as some call it Amillennian period

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So, this is just two strikes against such an idea... for starters.

Oh yeah, I just remembered another thought...

the "144,000" (of ONE nation) in Rev7 are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nationS [plural]" in that same chapter. This strongly suggests the two groups will exist on the earth at the SAME TIME PERIOD (and we know what time period that is, per v.14 etc)







[one of the reasons people like to try to place these "144,000 [12,000 from each of the tribes of ISRAEL listed there]" back in the first century, is that they aim to DISREGARD the fact that Jesus told "the 12" that in that future MK age, they will "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel"--they do not want to believe that "Israel" will still exist as a nation at that "future" time; see Matt19:28 (Mt25:31-34 for its TIMING) and Lk22:30]

 

[ThatGuy]

Have you considered that we/the Church which is His body are not a part of the "WHEAT" harvest?

(i.e. that there is "more than one" HARVEST [note: not more than one RAPTURE]--and thus "more than one" FIRSTFRUIT--both in Scripture and in nature)







[I've made a number of posts in the past on that subject]




P.S. the "harvest" in Matt13 says, "the end [singular] of the AGE [singular]"... not the end of the "world" But, yeah, that corresponds with His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom "age" ("the age [singular] to come" Mt12:32)

You know what? I will have to read up on that. I’m not opposed to having my mind changed as long as I feel it goes along with his word read in context! But for now I’m going to sleep… work comes early

Blessings friend
TG

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@ThatGuy , thanks for your comment... and welcome to CC.


I am the exact same way, so I know what you mean!

Good night.

Hope to see you around the boards.

 

[selahsays]

Remember the fact that Satan is currently bound, so He can't harm Christians. We are currently enjoying the millennium, where Satan is bound and can't do anything to stop the gospel from going out and saving millions of souls.
The Holy Spirit is currently preventing Satan from destroying the world. But when the Holy Spirit releases Satan and opens the pit, all the Demons will come out and torment and kill those who don't have the seal of God on their foreheads.
So it's quite evident that we are living in the prophesized millennium, or as some call it Amillennian period

Hi, Charlie. The 1,000-year millennium will begin when Christ returns at the 7th trump.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Hi, Charlie. The 1,000-year millennium will begin when Christ returns at the 7th trump.

OK, so the postmillennial view of eschatology is the one that appeals to you. That's fine, but don't forget about the other 2/3 of the Church who hold to the, Premillennial and Amillennial views.
All three branches of the Church would like to think they their view is the correct one and the other two are erroneous.

Some members of my Church left, because their view changed and they decided to join a Church which preaches their newly discovered preference. Our Church Elder tried to reason with them, showing them a bunch of Bible passages to support our view but they couldn't be persuaded and left anyway.

There was no bad blood between us, so the separation was peaceful and respectful. The Church is made up of fairly equal, numbers of people who hold to one of the three views.

Eschatology is one of those controversial Bible doctrines, where all three views can be supported by assembling Bible verses which seem to support each position. And since there is no authorized arbitrator to confirm or deny any of the views, the Church will remain divided over this doctrine.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I’m not opposed to having my mind changed as long as I feel it goes along with his word read in context!

Amen, hope these will be helpful in your prayerful and careful studies:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Remember the fact that Satan is currently bound, so He can't harm Christians. We are currently enjoying the millennium, where Satan is bound and can't do anything to stop the gospel from going out and saving millions of souls.
The Holy Spirit is currently preventing Satan from destroying the world. But when the Holy Spirit releases Satan and opens the pit, all the Demons will come out and torment and kill those who don't have the seal of God on their foreheads.
So it's quite evident that we are living in the prophesized millennium, or as some call it Amillennian period

We''re NOT in the millennial age. The millennial age is AFTER this coming great tribulation when the Lord Jesus returns for us. In the millennial age, the Lord Jesus LITERALLY, PHYSICALLY rules the world. Everyone will see Him with their own eyes, not just spiritually by the Holy Spirit He will actually rule from Jerusalem in the Millennial age. Also His people will rule the nations with Him in the millennial age - right now NONE of us are as an indication that we are not in the millennial age.

Satan has not been bound up and is doing everything right now to deceive people away from the Lord. That's why things have gotten so markedly worse because Satan knows his time is short.

You're deceived. No wonder you don't think God will include children among His people. Thanks for letting everyone know! Not listening to you anymore.


🍰

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

@2ndTimeIsTheCharm , do you think the "Bride / Wife" is an actual single/singular woman only, and no one else (as in, no men are saved)?? It's highly doubtful you think such.

Your come-back is so stupid, it's "stoopud", lol!

If that's what you're saying then why do all Christian men believe they are part of the Church, who is the Lord's Bride? None of them think as you do or feel offended or left out.

There's something really weird about how hard you try to twist or muddy the truth to try to promote Pre-Trib. I noticed when you do that, it means that you're not able to counter what the Bible actually says.

I don't think you're one of us and I don't trust you.

-=<(*)>=-​

To everyone else, PLEASE study the Bible with the Holy Spirit. Ask Him for understanding even if the truth is hard to accept. I got very frightened when I realized the rapture is AFTER the great tribulation, but God is strengthening me and helping me put on my spiritual armor to help me endure what's to come. He will do the same for you.


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[ThatGuy]

Amen, hope these will be helpful in your prayerful and careful studies:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

I read several topics on this forum before I signed up. Just wanted to point out how nearly every one of your posts are just very nice, even when you don’t agree with the poster. It inspires me to be a better listener and be nicer to people in general.

Have a blessed day!
TG

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your come-back is so stupid, it's "stoopud", lol!

If that's what you're saying then why do all Christian men believe they are part of the Church, who is the Lord's Bride? None of them think as you do or feel offended or left out.

You're misunderstanding what I put.




The point I originally made wasn't suggesting that there are not "male and female believers" in EACH ILLUSTRATION / PICTURE...


... just that the "picture" of "10 [or even just 5] VirginS [PLURAL]" is NOT given to illustrate the "MARRIAGE" / who He (the ONE Bridegroom) is "MARRYING" (but is rather a picture / illustration of "the marriage FEAST / SUPPER" i.e. the earthly MK age);


... and that THAT ILLUSTRATION / PICTURE ^ given in scripture is very DISTINCT FROM "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" who He IS "MARRYING"




... and also that they "THEY / THOSE [PLURAL] HAVING BEEN INVITED [PERFECT participle] to the wedding FEAST / SUPPER [/MK age] of the Lamb"(Rev19:9--which He is heading DOWN TO, at that point in the chronology)
are LIKEWISE DISTINCT FROM "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" (Rev19:7) to/for/about whom "the MARRIAGE" itself SOLELY pertains (which "marriage," at that point in the chronology, HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE, UP THERE *WITH* HIM)







[I was saying, your argument is not coherent, given what I've put regarding these... ]

2TITC: This is a parable that just illustrates how we should be prepare for His return. It NEVER says that those alive when He returns are actual virgin maids in waiting.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN "the MEAL [G347; used in Mt8:11/Lk13:29 also]" - Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-48 (and its parallel passage Matt24:42-51)



(He will be an "ALREADY-WED" Bridegroom, at that point... and the saints in those passages do not ever "lift off" the earth--they are NOT whom He is "MARRYING")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

selahsays said:
Hi, Charlie. The 1,000-year millennium will begin when Christ returns at the 7th trump.

OK, so the postmillennial view of eschatology is the one that appeals to you. That's fine, but don't forget about the other 2/3 of the Church who hold to the, Premillennial and Amillennial views.

Hi Charlie_2024,

I think you've misunderstood selahsays's point, here.

She is PRE-Mill (not POST-Mill)...



... so she is presenting her "PRE-Mill [and post-Trib]" viewpoint.







By the way, welcome to CC... I see you're fairly new here also.

Hope to see you around the boards.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I like the point you made about always being ready, because no one knows the day or hour.

Hi LoriSaysHey,

I know your post was addressed to Blade. I was just hoping to insert something about the part I bolded ^ .

Consider:

--"but of that day and hour knoweth no man" (and related verses), Jesus is talking about His Second Coming to the earth (per context), so v.36 (Mt24, for example) is referring back to the "IT is near, even at the doors" of v.33 and [same point] His Second Coming to the earth of vv.29-31 [corresponding with Isa27:9,12-13; i.e. not about "our Rapture"];


--"knoweth" is in the "PERFECT tense" (perfect indicative), meaning, no one (not even Jesus) "knew," (up-to and) at the time this was spoken... But it is not conveying something along the lines that no one CAN or WILL ever "know"; I believe Jesus "knew" perfectly after His resurrection / ascension / exaltation; and then...


--some 60+ years after His ascension / exaltation, He then LATER disclosed "further information" on THAT Subject (including numerous "timing" details supplied throughout the book of Revelation [esp. chpts 4-19]--some more readily apparent than others), that will provide that very information to those who will find themselves IN the Tribulation period (IF they will but heed His word--and we know that while a great many WILL heed His word, many others will not [just as in the days of Noah]... It will, of course, be a time of great "deception".)






Thank you for bringing up a great topic of discussion.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

(He will be an "ALREADY-WED" Bridegroom, at that point... and the saints in those passages do not ever "lift off" the earth--they are NOT whom He is "MARRYING")

Here you go muddying the real issue again....

You're STILL missing the point that the wedding of the Lord will not go through unless the WHOLE church is there. He's not going to marry the pre-trib church (no such thing by the way) and party it up at the wedding feast while the tribulation church are suffering on earth during the great tribulation (you're actually IN this group if you're still alive at that time!

Jesus will wed the church and throw the wedding feast when the WHOLE GROUP is collected. That's AFTER the great tribulation, NOT before.

Mark 13
24 “But in those days, FOLLOWING that distress, [the great tribulation]
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth [those still alive] to the ends of the heavens [those who have already died - NOT the pre-trib snowflakes partying at the feast].

You treat this whole thing like it's a game. Wake up! The great tribulation will happen in our lifetime. The antichrist will be revealed - he's alive right now and an adult. If you're not dead by then, you're going to go through it!


🍰

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here you go muddying the real issue again....

You're STILL missing the point that the wedding of the Lord will not go through unless the WHOLE church is there. He's not going to marry the pre-trib church (no such thing by the way) and party it up at the wedding feast while the tribulation church are suffering on earth during the great tribulation (you're actually IN this group if you're still alive at that time!

You really have missed my point.

The "wedding FEAST / SUPPER / festivities" only takes place after His RETURN TO THE EARTH;

...it does NOT take place UP THERE...

... and is NOT what takes place upon "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (it doesn't take place up there AT ALL--"the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" takes place ON THE EARTH, commencing only upon His "RETURN" THERE [to the earth])









["the MARRIAGE" itself... does NOT pertain to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: NOT to OT saints, NOT to Trib saints, NOT to MK-age saints...; It does not pertain to "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom" (Jn3:29-John the baptist), NOR to "the [invited] GuestS [plural]," NOR to the "10 or 5 virginS/bridesmaidS [plural]"... NONE OF THOSE "saints" will participate in "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" at which point "the MARRIAGE" itself (SOLELY) pertains to / applies... ; THAT is what the PICTURE / ILLUSTRATION in Scripture SHOWS. There is NO "Bride / Wife" spoken of in Matt25:1-13, Lk12:36-37,38,40, etc etc...]




"The Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]) is the ONLY ONE

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus will wed the church and throw the wedding feast when the WHOLE GROUP is collected.

You're assuming that "weddings & feasts-of-weddings" happened in that day (back when this was written) THE SAME WAY that today's weddings and wedding receptions (w/dinners) happen, that is, ALL ON THE SAME DAY (even before the couple consummates their union--that's how TODAY'S weddings go).


That is NOT how they did so back in that era.

That's AFTER the great tribulation, NOT before.

The wedding FEAST / SUPPER *IS* after the GT / Trib yrs, and not before (I never said "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" precedes the Trib yrs; No, because the "INVITING" TO IT is what takes places ALL THROUGHOUT THE TRIBULATION PERIOD ["those [plural] HAVING BEEN INVITED [PERFECT participle]..."--THAT PART is completed (on the earth) by the time He's getting ready to "RETURN" to the earth Rev19--The wedding feast / supper itself will not have been completed / have taken place yet, at that point in the chronology--the wording DOES NOT REFLECT such an idea--Rather, it's where He'll be HEADING BACK DOWN *TO*--WITH His Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]! [US!/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" ONLY])




The "MARRIAGE" is not "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER"

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

You're assuming that "weddings & feasts-of-weddings" happened in that day (back when this was written)

No, YOU"RE assuming that I'm assuming that. Never said anything like that.

I'm saying that the wedding will not happen until AFTER the great tribulation, not anytime before that. Not until the full number of the church has been brought in.

You really should think about what you'll do when the antichrist is revealed and you're still here. You need to learn to endure in the Lord to the end, even unto death. The Bible warned that a lot of us will be killed because of the antichrist.

Revelation 13:7
It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people [that's us!] and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

...

9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.
10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.

Will you be ready to die for the Lord? What will you say to all the people you've deceived into believing the false pre-trib teaching and are not prepared for the persecution and death?


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