Predestination is misunderstood...
- Thread starter Genez
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
One would have to imagine the love it would take to do that, of the Sent One as much as the One Who Sent Him to get past our default objection "Who does He think He Is, because everybody should know that it's me who is God's gift to the world." If we can't believe in that degree of love, then we're left only pretending that we're 'all powerful, all knowing, all beautiful" (but really don't believe that either if we spend our entire lives attempting to prove it) rather than being at peace with the reality that we are somewhat powerful, somewhat knowing, and somewhat beautiful enough to have been actual intended recipients of such a message that professes such love. And this, indeed, IS the central message of the gospel, that God so loved the world that...!
John 16:8, And when he is come, he will REPROVE=Chasten the world (of his elect). Heb 12:6-8 - For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth, if ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons, for what son is he, whom the Father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then ye are bastards, and not sons.
"Therefore, as it is written:
“Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 1:31
That one was for all you "boastophobes."
There are two men.
God imparts grace to each one so that their soul is made free of the flesh while presenting to each one the same truth that God will utilize in drawing a man.
One man, while his flesh was being contained by God's power, finds himself wanting to believe in Christ dying for his sins.
The other man, while his flesh was being contained by God's power, remains wanting to hate God and cling to the cosmic world.
God must do the work to get us to the place where are true desire for God can be made known.
John 6:28-29
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
(works of men - plurality - a system of deeds devised by men to do, to gain God's approval)
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
( work of God = singular. not works of men!)
That means... That whenever someone believes?
God did a work that freed the man's soul to believe if that man wanted to.
God contained that man's flesh as to make free his soul to make his decision.
Now? If he chose not to believe? That man is now without excuse.
For while God was imparting grace power to contain that man's sin nature? He chose free of sin to reject God freely.
Even sinless Adam was influenced by Satan when he rejected God's Word. But when we are under the power of grace
to choose to believe the Gospel of God? We become like the angels were when they chose to believe or reject the Lord!
Were the angels that stayed with God under some irresistible grace? No!
Just like we who believed were made free to believe. And, did!
One day at a time.....
grace and peace ...........
God wanted mankind back that he had lost at a point in time.
God does not love the world.
So why does it say in John 3:16?
The word "loved" is in the past tense.
God does NOT love the present world.
What God loved was the world He intended the world to be!
That is why He has redeemed men back to Himself. Bought to make man to become as God always intended man to be!
It does not say that God gave His Son because He loves the world.
He does not love what man is now become.
God gave His only Son because of how God envisioned man is to be when creating him.
We have been saved so God can return us to what He always intended us to be!
grace and peace .....................
God does not love the world.
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.
If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15
So why does it say in John 3:16?
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
The word "loved" is in the past tense.
God does NOT love the present world.
What God loved was the world He intended the world to be!
That is why He has redeemed men back to Himself. Bought to make man to become as God always intended man to be!
It does not say that God gave His Son because He loves the world.
He does not love what man is now become.
God gave His only Son because of how God envisioned man is to be when creating him.
We have been saved so God can return us to what He always intended us to be!
grace and peace .....................
-
1
- Show all
Good day, Forest. I know you believe all Scripture must harmonize. What do you make of Jesus' words in John 16:7-9?
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter
will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the
world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;
There must be some way... otherwise, you have people born again who have no faith, since they do not believe in God, and yet
somehow the as yet unborn again person must be able to be convicted of their sinful standing before a just holy and loving God.
I see in another of your posts to me which I did not yet see when I made the above portion of this post to you, that you have quoted the same verses back to me. So again you are saying people are born again who have zero belief/faith. That makes no sense to me.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter
will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the
world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;
There must be some way... otherwise, you have people born again who have no faith, since they do not believe in God, and yet
somehow the as yet unborn again person must be able to be convicted of their sinful standing before a just holy and loving God.
I see in another of your posts to me which I did not yet see when I made the above portion of this post to you, that you have quoted the same verses back to me. So again you are saying people are born again who have zero belief/faith. That makes no sense to me.
-
1
- Show all
He did not. He said God saw it as a meritous act. Why do you think the angels rejoice? You are interpreting it the way you want because you don't like the fact that when God supplies the truth and suppresses all the factors that would make one hostile to God, that a soul can make a positive response from their own volition.
Can you take the passage out of context a little more please. "This people", referring to a specific type, has become callous of heart. Jesus is talking of the sort, like the Pharisee type, who has repeatedly rejected the word of God. They have closed their ears and they have shut their eyes and if they were to open both, they might hear and see.
Matt.13:15
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
Your inability to comprehend that God sets the situation so that we can make a response from our own volition and that our believing is not what saves us but rather, is God's promise to believers, keeps you blinded to the truth.
Can you take the passage out of context a little more please. "This people", referring to a specific type, has become callous of heart. Jesus is talking of the sort, like the Pharisee type, who has repeatedly rejected the word of God. They have closed their ears and they have shut their eyes and if they were to open both, they might hear and see.
Matt.13:15
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
Your inability to comprehend that God sets the situation so that we can make a response from our own volition and that our believing is not what saves us but rather, is God's promise to believers, keeps you blinded to the truth.
I'm amazed. He hasn't refuted what I have said, but somehow you know what he is saying. Awesome.
And I never said a person doesn't choose God of their own volition. The heart of stone that led to rejection is removed in salvation. A heart of flesh always chooses God. Both act under their own volition.
And I never said a person doesn't choose God of their own volition. The heart of stone that led to rejection is removed in salvation. A heart of flesh always chooses God. Both act under their own volition.
He doesn't have to feel "spiritual guilt", whatever that is. The issue of sin has moral implications as well. How else could an atheist recognise murder is wrong?
The people he is talking to are not the ones who, knowing God exists, suppress the truth of His existence. He is talking to believers in Christ about those who deny God's existence. The ones Paul is talking to are saved, the ones he is talking about are not and never will be saved but they are without excuse. They could be saved if they weren't so highly arrogant but they refuse to humble themselves even at the most basic level of God consciousness. This sort don't just turn from God in confusion and or ignorance and follow after the lusts of their flesh, they actively suppress the truth and indulge themselves to the hilt. These are not the sort of people who are simply lost or misled, upon whom you would have compassion. These are the sort you want to keep as far away from as you possibly can.
The people he is talking to are not the ones who, knowing God exists, suppress the truth of His existence. He is talking to believers in Christ about those who deny God's existence. The ones Paul is talking to are saved, the ones he is talking about are not and never will be saved but they are without excuse. They could be saved if they weren't so highly arrogant but they refuse to humble themselves even at the most basic level of God consciousness. This sort don't just turn from God in confusion and or ignorance and follow after the lusts of their flesh, they actively suppress the truth and indulge themselves to the hilt. These are not the sort of people who are simply lost or misled, upon whom you would have compassion. These are the sort you want to keep as far away from as you possibly can.