The Torah is Still Binding and We Must Obey It

[Dino246]

Dino, I am not sure I understand, are you saying that we do not need to read and understand the Old Testament? We need all of God's word to have the proper understanding. We have to understand the beginning to understand the end, we need to understand the prophets so that we can see the end coming.

We definitely do need to read and understand the Old Testament.

What we also need to do is understand that some of the Bible applies to us as direct instruction, and some of it doesn't. For example, it is absolutely impossible for Christians today to show up at the Temple three times a year, because there is no temple. It is also absolutely impossible to solicit the inspection of a priest for the rash on your skin, because there are no priests. When you stone the adulterers in your community, you will be charged of murder. These things are required in the Old Testament law.

 

[jamessb]

I wonder if the person who started this thread has ever read Paul's letter to the Romans. It is clear (in multiple places) that a person is either under the law or the recipient of God's grace (absolving her/him of violating the OT law).

The OT law is external and empowered by sin. The person who has received the Holy Spirit, i.e., a Christian, is governed internally. You can't be under the OT law and be in Christ, who met all the requirements of the OT law, simultaneously.

This is basic Christian doctrine.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

you did not answer which laws are in your heart if you are under the new covenant you should know. Will you answer?

“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭51:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭61:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭

“Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:33‬ ‭

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when you truly believe something it is what the phrase written on your heart means

theres only one true mediator between God and mankind


“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭

The word of the lone mediator is the law it’s the gospel we’re called to hear and believe

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I wonder if the person who started this thread has ever read Paul's letter to the Romans. It is clear (in multiple places) that a person is either under the law or the recipient of God's grace (absolving her/him of violating the OT law).

The OT law is external and empowered by sin. The person who has received the Holy Spirit, i.e., a Christian, is governed internally. You can't be under the OT law and be in Christ, who met all the requirements of the OT law, simultaneously.

This is basic Christian doctrine.

If someone knows the law they understand when you have sinned the law demands that you die for your sin . Flyer the sinner is put to death the law has no more to say to the person they sinned and we’re out to death it doesn’t speak to the dead person any further it’s fulfilled when the person is put to death

“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭15:32, 35-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This man who was put to death the law of Moses has no more to ever say to him it’s been fulfilled he is no longer in debt to it it’s been paid and reconciled with his death

“Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

….Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit,

and not in the oldness of the letter.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:1, 4-6‬ ‭

When a sinner dies for thier sins the law is fulfilled and never says another word to the dead person

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

….Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another,”


The law doesn’t speak to the born again the gospel does the law has no authority over those who’ve died with Christ death is the end of the laws authority over man

 

[Malven]

We definitely do need to read and understand the Old Testament.

What we also need to do is understand that some of the Bible applies to us as direct instruction, and some of it doesn't. For example, it is absolutely impossible for Christians today to show up at the Temple three times a year, because there is no temple. It is also absolutely impossible to solicit the inspection of a priest for the rash on your skin, because there are no priests. When you stone the adulterers in your community, you will be charged of murder. These things are required in the Old Testament law.

You are right that the sacrificial law does not apply to us. Jesus paid the price for us on the cross. We do need to understand the Old Testament; just like reading and studying anything else we need to understand the beginning to get the full understanding of everything in between' and the end.

 

[jamessb]

I strongly suggest that people read Romans 3:20, 22b-24; 5:8. 15; 7:6 and then see if the premise of the OP has any validity.

 

[jamessb]

What does the Law have to say about the following...

Speeding
Impersonating someone online
Betting on the winner of the college basketball tournament
Forging a check
Etc.

The only possible answer is... NOTHING!

So there are only two possibilities. a) The above (and other modern behaviors) are okay because they are not addressed in the Torah or b) we are governed by the Holy Spirit.

Here is the answer: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come." John 16:13

 

[jamessb]

Continuing on (after editing time expired)...

The torah is part of the Old Covenant, the agreement that God had (and has) with the Jewish people. It is not applicable to people living under the New Covenant, the agreement that God has with Christians. You can't mix both!

The OT law is external; Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit internally. It is a part of us, not an external, written document.

If you are governed by the Torah, then you don't understand the basis of the New Covenant, purchased by the blood of Christ.

 

[BlessedBeMyRock]

We are still obligated to obey the Torah. It was never abolished.

Tell me, thou that desire to be under the law, dost thou not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[Soyeong]

Tell me, thou that desire to be under the law, dost thou not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

If God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free. In Psalms 119:142, God’s law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of God’s law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free. Furthermore, God’s law came through the line of the freewoman, not the line of the bondwoman, so this should influence the way that the passage you quoted should be interpreted.

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of obeying God’s law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of obeying God’s law, then we will share it as Paul did (Romans 7:22) and we won’t interpret Paul as expressing a view of obeying God’s law that is incompatible with what he considered to be Scripture. For example in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the Law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night, so we can’t believe in the truth of these words as Scripture while not allowing them to shape our view of obeying God’s law.

 

[jamessb]

If God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free. In Psalms 119:142, God’s law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of God’s law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free. Furthermore, God’s law came through the line of the freewoman, not the line of the bondwoman, so this should influence the way that the passage you quoted should be interpreted.

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of obeying God’s law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of obeying God’s law, then we will share it as Paul did (Romans 7:22) and we won’t interpret Paul as expressing a view of obeying God’s law that is incompatible with what he considered to be Scripture. For example in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the Law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night, so we can’t believe in the truth of these words as Scripture while not allowing them to shape our view of obeying God’s law.

THE TORAH IS APPLICABLE TO THE JEWS ONLY! IT IS THE BASIS OF THE OLD COVENANT ONLY. WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT???

I guarantee that if you read the Torah you will see that you are not keeping those laws in their entirety. If you break one of those laws, you are guilty of violating the Old Covenant.

 

[Soyeong]

THE TORAH IS APPLICABLE TO THE JEWS ONLY! IT IS THE BASIS OF THE OLD COVENANT ONLY. WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT???

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14), and commissioned his disciples to spread to the nations (Matthew 28:16-20), so the Gospel is not just for Jews, but for Gentiles too. Jesus also set a sinless example for his followers to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so follow Jesus is not just for Jews, but for Gentiles too. Gentiles can look at the Torah that Jesus spent his ministry teaching and decide whether or not to become his follower, but Gentiles can’t follow him by refusing to follow what he taught. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so the Torah is also the basis for the New Covenant, which means that those who want nothing to do with obeying the Torah want nothing to do with the New Covenant. In Psalms 119:29 and Exodus 33:13, they wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching them to obey the Torah, so those who want nothing to do with the Torah want nothing to do with grace. Moreover, our salvation is from sin and again it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is, so those who want nothing to do with the Torah want nothing to do with salvation.

[/quote]I guarantee that if you read the Torah you will see that you are not keeping those laws in their entirety. If you break one of those laws, you are guilty of violating the Old Covenant.[/QUOTE]
I don’t claim to be sinless, but when I have broken one of the laws of the Torah, then I have repented and returned to obedience to it through faith in accordance with the Gospel. Likewise, you are not keeping the Torah in it entirety and need to repent of the times that you have broken its laws in accordance with the Gospel.

 

[Inquisitor]

Dino, I am not sure I understand, are you saying that we do not need to read and understand the Old Testament? We need all of God's word to have the proper understanding. We have to understand the beginning to understand the end, we need to understand the prophets so that we can see the end coming.

The Old Testament was informing us of the Christ and our need for the Christ.

The Old Testament is littered with the types, the shadows, the prophecies of the Christ.

The law tells you that the Christ will be morally perfect, sinless. The law tells you that the Christ
will be the great high priest. The law proclaims the perfect sacrifice, the atonement for your sin.

The law is not a means to salvation, the law only informs you that you do not love anyone else
but yourself.

Perfect love was defined by the life and the death of Jesus Christ, not the law.

We now have that life (The Holy Spirit) within us now.

No need for an external legal code to keep us on the straight and narrow path.

 

[Inquisitor]

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14), and commissioned his disciples to spread to the nations (Matthew 28:16-20), so the Gospel is not just for Jews, but for Gentiles too. Jesus also set a sinless example for his followers to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so follow Jesus is not just for Jews, but for Gentiles too. Gentiles can look at the Torah that Jesus spent his ministry teaching and decide whether or not to become his follower, but Gentiles can’t follow him by refusing to follow what he taught. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so the Torah is also the basis for the New Covenant, which means that those who want nothing to do with obeying the Torah want nothing to do with the New Covenant. In Psalms 119:29 and Exodus 33:13, they wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching them to obey the Torah, so those who want nothing to do with the Torah want nothing to do with grace. Moreover, our salvation is from sin and again it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is, so those who want nothing to do with the Torah want nothing to do with salvation.

I guarantee that if you read the Torah you will see that you are not keeping those laws in their entirety. If you break one of those laws, you are guilty of violating the Old Covenant.[/QUOTE]
I don’t claim to be sinless, but when I have broken one of the laws of the Torah, then I have repented and returned to obedience to it through faith in accordance with the Gospel. Likewise, you are not keeping the Torah in it entirety and need to repent of the times that you have broken its laws in accordance with the Gospel.[/QUOTE]If you repented, over and over again, then you would be sinless.

Unless your repentance was not a genuine repentance, Soyeong.

A Christian cannot sin, those in Jesus Christ have died to the deeds of the flesh.

 

[jamessb]

Look, it's not very difficult...

a) The Torah, the written law, is an external control.
b) The Holy Spirit, given to Christians, is internal guidance.

The torah is no more applicable to Christians than the Holy Spirit is to unsaved Jews. Christians don't need external rules!

John 16:13a, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." If you choose obedience to the external Torah over the guidance of the internal Holy Spirit, you are not a Christian.

"For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be subject again to the yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1

 

[Soyeong]

Look, it's not very difficult...

a) The Torah, the written law, is an external control.
b) The Holy Spirit, given to Christians, is internal guidance.

The Bible notably does not state that the Torah is external rules, but rather it repeatedly connects our love for Gods with our obedience to in. If the Torah were only external rules, then God would not have disdained it when His children honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13).

The torah is no more applicable to Christians than the Holy Spirit is to unsaved Jews. Christians don't need external rules!

John 16:13a, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." If you choose obedience to the external Torah over the guidance of the internal Holy Spirit, you are not a Christian.

In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah, and in Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah. In Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Torah while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those with uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Torah. So it is not the case that guidance by the Spirit is an alternative to obedience to the Torah.

A Christian is by definition someone who seeks to follow Christ and Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so it is absurd for you to try to pretend like it is following Christ's example of obedience to the Torah that disqualifies someone as being a Christian rather than refusing to follow him.

"For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be subject again to the yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1

If God saved the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt in order to put them under slavery to His law, then it would be for slavery that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, and in Psalms 119:45, God's law is of freedom. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in 1 John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of God's law that puts us in slavery while it is the truth that sets us free. So you are not correctly identifying what Paul was speaking against in Galatians. It shouldn't make sense to you to interpret Galatians as speaking against following Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

If you repented, over and over again, then you would be sinless.

Unless your repentance was not a genuine repentance, Soyeong.

A Christian cannot sin, those in Jesus Christ have died to the deeds of the flesh.

I said that I don't claim to be sinless in the sense that I don't claim that I have never sinned, not in the sense that I have not had my sins forgiven. The works of the flesh are all against the Mosaic Law, so the position that Christians have died to works of the flesh is the portion that Christians live in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

 

[Dino246]

A Christian is by definition someone who seeks to follow Christ and Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah

This is the root of your error. Jesus didn't follow the Torah to set an example for us, but to fulfill all righteousness so that He could be the perfect sacrifice for our sin. You don't walk in right relationship with God by trying to follow the Law. If that is your plan, you must follow the Law perfectly, never having sinned once. You have already failed, and there is no second chance to be perfect.

Jesus didn't set you free so you could strive to follow the Law; He set you free from the curse of the Law so that you could live in freedom and confidence by the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Perhaps one day you will understand that.

 

[jamessb]

This is the root of your error. Jesus didn't follow the Torah to set an example for us, but to fulfill all righteousness so that He could be the perfect sacrifice for our sin. You don't walk in right relationship with God by trying to follow the Law. If that is your plan, you must follow the Law perfectly, never having sinned once. You have already failed, and there is no second chance to be perfect.

Jesus didn't set you free so you could strive to follow the Law; He set you free from the curse of the Law so that you could live in freedom and confidence by the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Perhaps one day you will understand that.

Great post! Thanks!

 

[rogerg]

We are still obligated to obey the Torah. It was never abolished.

The Mosaic Law was superseded by and ended with Christ. That which the law addressed were the earthly patterns of that which are in the heavenly but not the true of heavenly themselves. Christ's offering addressed the true of the heavenly, not its earthly patterns.

[Heb 7:1,5,6,11-13, 18 KJV]
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: ...
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

[Heb 9:23-25, 28 KJV]
23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; ...
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

[1Jo 3:23-24 KJV]
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

[Gal 3:10-11 KJV]
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.