Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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You see...this is so typical of NR people. NRs vehemently insist that God loves each and everyone person in the world in 3:16; yet in v. 17 Jesus didn't really die for each and every person. Typical doublespeak! The "world" means one thing to you in v.16 and something else to you in v.17, even though it says that Jesus was sent into the world that God so dearly loved to [actually] save it! You just nilly willy destroy the parallel between the verses because it's an inconvenient, embarrassing truth, since most of of Christendom rightly disavows universal salvation! But God forbid that anyone should cast doubt or aspersions upon God's universal love for all mankind!
Of course, I do agree that Jesus' atoning work accomplished what he came to do and fulfilled his Father's intentions perfectly, just as I also understand that God does not and indeed cannot love the entire world, i.e. each and every person in it, as you believe. God loves only the living, not the dead because he's the God of only the living (Mk 12:27)! Besides, the world has always been filled with it shares of Esaus, hasn't it? But I suppose you still think that God loved him, too, while simultaneously hating him?
Of course, I do agree that Jesus' atoning work accomplished what he came to do and fulfilled his Father's intentions perfectly, just as I also understand that God does not and indeed cannot love the entire world, i.e. each and every person in it, as you believe. God loves only the living, not the dead because he's the God of only the living (Mk 12:27)! Besides, the world has always been filled with it shares of Esaus, hasn't it? But I suppose you still think that God loved him, too, while simultaneously hating him?
Right! The world is the "whole entire planet...AND every single person in it! So, God fully intended for Jesus to save each and every person on this planet. And yet...Jesus's mission has been an epic failure! After all, didn't Jesus himself say that "all things are possible with God" (Mk 10:27)? So how come each and every person in the world hasn't come to believe on Christ? Oh wait....I know why. I can answer that question. Jn 17:9 tells us why. Dang! If only Jesus would have cooperated with his Father.
Dang! If only Jesus would have cooperated with his Father.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
You obviously have no clue what my position is. In what you quote, you quoted me out of context. I was stating what the NR position SHOULD be if they applied the term "world" consistently. (The operative term here is "consistently".) Their naive and simplistic belief about this term is that it's always used in the distributive sense, such as they apply it to Jn 3:16, as they believe that God loves every single person in the world; yet when they get to v. 17, all of a sudden it's not used in that universal sense. They quickly sing another tune. Shiloh himself conceded today that v.17 doesn't say that Christ came to save "all" the world. At the same time, he was obviously to the fact that neither does v.16 say God so loved all the world!
Try to keep up #52, lest you embarrass yourself further. Everyone here but you, apparently, understands that I hold to the Five Doctrines of Grace. I have never hidden that fact!
Have a good evening, sir.
P.S. But I am grateful for your Mat 1:21 quote since it supports my argument.
Try to keep up #52, lest you embarrass yourself further. Everyone here but you, apparently, understands that I hold to the Five Doctrines of Grace. I have never hidden that fact!
Have a good evening, sir.
P.S. But I am grateful for your Mat 1:21 quote since it supports my argument.
You see...this is so typical of NR people. NRs vehemently insist that God loves each and everyone person in the world in 3:16; yet in v. 17 Jesus didn't really die for each and every person. Typical doublespeak! The "world" means one thing to you in v.16 and something else to you in v.17, even though it says that Jesus was sent into the world that God so dearly loved to [actually] save it! You just nilly willy destroy the parallel between the verses because it's an inconvenient, embarrassing truth, since most of of Christendom rightly disavows universal salvation! But God forbid that anyone should cast doubt or aspersions upon God's universal love for all mankind!
Of course, I do agree that Jesus' atoning work accomplished what he came to do and fulfilled his Father's intentions perfectly, just as I also understand that God does not and indeed cannot love the entire world, i.e. each and every person in it, as you believe. God loves only the living, not the dead because he's the God of only the living (Mk 12:27)! Besides, the world has always been filled with it shares of Esaus, hasn't it? But I suppose you still think that God loved him, too, while simultaneously hating him?
Of course, I do agree that Jesus' atoning work accomplished what he came to do and fulfilled his Father's intentions perfectly, just as I also understand that God does not and indeed cannot love the entire world, i.e. each and every person in it, as you believe. God loves only the living, not the dead because he's the God of only the living (Mk 12:27)! Besides, the world has always been filled with it shares of Esaus, hasn't it? But I suppose you still think that God loved him, too, while simultaneously hating him?
You nailed it perfectly. Plus the Lord doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezk 18:32; 33:11) because judgment, condemnation and punishment are his strange work (Isa 28:21;' Gen 6:6)) . And even more than this -- Noah preached to them for 120 years (Gen 6:3), which was clearly an expression of God's grace. Yet, because of the total depravity of the antediluvians' hearts (Gen Gen 6:5), none but Noah and his immediate family was saved. The rest of the world refused to repent and be saved because it was not in them to do so! They could not repent and believe Noah's preaching of the "gospel" (such as it was at that time); for they could not change what they were, i.e. their essence (Jer 13:23), which testifies to the sad truth of this passage:
Isa 26:10
10 Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
NIV
External expressions of God's grace never has saved anyone! The power of Grace works only when God internally applies it to a depraved heart, for He is greater than the human heart (1Jn 3:20), which is the fountainhead of all evil, according to Jesus (Mat 15:18-20)! This is precisely why God cannot love anything or anyone that is evil. He can love only that which reflects his glory and his thrice holy character. Therefore, God hates sin and the sinner, as so many passages teach! But thanks be to our Glorious Lord and Savior that He so loved his elect in Christ before time began! Now that is something worthy over which to loudly sing our praises
to our Great and Awesome and Merciful and Compassionate God! But if any of us NOW can't find it in our hearts to rejoice and praise God over these great truths I just shared, how will we be able to find those things in our hearts in the next age? Isn't this age preparing us for the age to come?
Plus the Lord doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezk 18:32; 33:11) because judgment, condemnation and punishment are his strange work (Isa 28:21;' Gen 6:6)) . And even more than this -- Noah preached to them for 120 years (Gen 6:3), which was clearly an expression of God's grace. Yet, because of the total depravity of the antediluvians' hearts (Gen Gen 6:5), none but Noah and his immediate family was saved. The rest of the world refused to repent and be saved because it was not in them to do so! They could not repent and believe Noah's preaching of the "gospel" (such as it was at that time); for they could not change what they were, i.e. their essence (Jer 13:23), which testifies to the sad truth of this passage:Isa 26:10
10 Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
NIV
External expressions of God's grace never has saved anyone! The power of Grace works only when God internally applies it to a depraved heart, for He is greater than the human heart (1Jn 3:20), which is the fountainhead of all evil, according to Jesus (Mat 15:18-20)! This is precisely why God cannot love anything or anyone that is evil. He can love only that which reflects his glory and his thrice holy character. Therefore, God hates sin and the sinner, as so many passages teach! But thanks be to our Glorious Lord and Savior that He so loved his elect in Christ before time began! Now that is something worthy over which to loudly sing our praises
to our Great and Awesome and Merciful and Compassionate God! But if any of us NOW can't find it in our hearts to rejoice and praise God over these great truths I just shared, how will we be able to find those things in our hearts in the next age? Isn't this age preparing us for the age to come?
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You nailed it perfectly. Plus the Lord doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezk 18:32; 33:11) because judgment, condemnation and punishment are his strange work (Isa 28:21;' Gen 6:6)) . And even more than this -- Noah preached to them for 120 years (Gen 6:3), which was clearly an expression of God's grace. Yet, because of the total depravity of the antediluvians' hearts (Gen Gen 6:5), none but Noah and his immediate family was saved. The rest of the world refused to repent and be saved because it was not in them to do so! They could not repent and believe Noah's preaching of the "gospel" (such as it was at that time); for they could not change what they were, i.e. their essence (Jer 13:23), which testifies to the sad truth of this passage:
Isa 26:10
10 Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
NIV
External expressions of God's grace never has saved anyone! The power of Grace works only when God internally applies it to a depraved heart, for He is greater than the human heart (1Jn 3:20), which is the fountainhead of all evil, according to Jesus (Mat 15:18-20)! This is precisely why God cannot love anything or anyone that is evil. He can love only that which reflects his glory and his thrice holy character. Therefore, God hates sin and the sinner, as so many passages teach! But thanks be to our Glorious Lord and Savior that He so loved his elect in Christ before time began! Now that is something worthy over which to loudly sing our praises
to our Great and Awesome and Merciful and Compassionate God! But if any of us NOW can't find it in our hearts to rejoice and praise God over these great truths I just shared, how will we be able to find those things in our hearts in the next age? Isn't this age preparing us for the age to come?
Plus the Lord doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezk 18:32; 33:11) because judgment, condemnation and punishment are his strange work (Isa 28:21;' Gen 6:6)) . And even more than this -- Noah preached to them for 120 years (Gen 6:3), which was clearly an expression of God's grace. Yet, because of the total depravity of the antediluvians' hearts (Gen Gen 6:5), none but Noah and his immediate family was saved. The rest of the world refused to repent and be saved because it was not in them to do so! They could not repent and believe Noah's preaching of the "gospel" (such as it was at that time); for they could not change what they were, i.e. their essence (Jer 13:23), which testifies to the sad truth of this passage:Isa 26:10
10 Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
NIV
External expressions of God's grace never has saved anyone! The power of Grace works only when God internally applies it to a depraved heart, for He is greater than the human heart (1Jn 3:20), which is the fountainhead of all evil, according to Jesus (Mat 15:18-20)! This is precisely why God cannot love anything or anyone that is evil. He can love only that which reflects his glory and his thrice holy character. Therefore, God hates sin and the sinner, as so many passages teach! But thanks be to our Glorious Lord and Savior that He so loved his elect in Christ before time began! Now that is something worthy over which to loudly sing our praises
to our Great and Awesome and Merciful and Compassionate God! But if any of us NOW can't find it in our hearts to rejoice and praise God over these great truths I just shared, how will we be able to find those things in our hearts in the next age? Isn't this age preparing us for the age to come?
[QUOTE="FollowerofShiloh, post: 5263756, member: 328825"]Love is Free Will to believe or reject. You just have a limited and isolated view of what Jesus did. The pre-incarnate Jesus gave the world 120 years of warning through the preaching of Noah before He killed them. If God does not love those who reject Him why did He give them 120 years of warning? It's obvious you do not know who God is at all.[/QUOTE]
So is HATE, then! Dead men don't come into this world loving God, so they have no will, no desire to believe him or trust him or to submit to him in any way. Go back and read Jn 3:18-21 that I quoted in my 2107 and see what Jesus said about "hate". In fact, also see what he said about what the condemned, who are already under God's judgement, LOVE! You must skim read my posts, if you read them at all! And also see my answer to Cam that I posted a few minutes ago.
P.S. By the way, love is an affection and is not the same as volition. Just sayin'. That kind of muddle-headed thinking will surely keep you from seeing God's truth.
So is HATE, then!
Dead men don't come into this world loving God, so they have no will, no desire to believe him or trust him or to submit to him in any way. Go back and read Jn 3:18-21 that I quoted in my 2107 and see what Jesus said about "hate". In fact, also see what he said about what the condemned, who are already under God's judgement, LOVE! You must skim read my posts, if you read them at all! And also see my answer to Cam that I posted a few minutes ago.P.S. By the way, love is an affection and is not the same as volition. Just sayin'. That kind of muddle-headed thinking will surely keep you from seeing God's truth.
How do you get logically from premise 1 to conclusion 2?
If I provide team sports kits for all the students in a school, intending that all participate in the school sports day, and many choose not to don the clothes and participate, but enough participate to fill all the team positions required for the games to function, why is my generous provision an epic failure?
If I provide team sports kits for all the students in a school, intending that all participate in the school sports day, and many choose not to don the clothes and participate, but enough participate to fill all the team positions required for the games to function, why is my generous provision an epic failure?
PaulThomson said:
If God"s view of salvation is individuals freely choosing out of gratitude to switch their allegiance away from serving and pursuing their obsessions to serving and pursuing God and Jesus Christ, and God does everything necessary for each person to make that informed choice before judgment day, then whether it is a remnant, or a majority, or all, who end up freely choosing Christ as Lord, it is a successful fulfilment of John 3:16-17. Fulfilment of John 3:16-17 does not depend on all the world becoming saved.
God only effectually saves only those He effectually saves", is a tautology.
That God effectually saves only some, does not mean he could not have wanted to save all humans.
That God effectually saves only some, does not mean those "some" were individually "destined in eternity to become his sons and daughters."
Cornelius was not in Judaism. He was an uncircumcised Gentile.
If God"s view of salvation is individuals freely choosing out of gratitude to switch their allegiance away from serving and pursuing their obsessions to serving and pursuing God and Jesus Christ, and God does everything necessary for each person to make that informed choice before judgment day, then whether it is a remnant, or a majority, or all, who end up freely choosing Christ as Lord, it is a successful fulfilment of John 3:16-17. Fulfilment of John 3:16-17 does not depend on all the world becoming saved.
God only effectually saves only those He effectually saves", is a tautology.
That God effectually saves only some, does not mean he could not have wanted to save all humans.
That God effectually saves only some, does not mean those "some" were individually "destined in eternity to become his sons and daughters."
Cornelius was not in Judaism. He was an uncircumcised Gentile.
You see...this is so typical of NR people. NRs vehemently insist that God loves each and everyone person in the world in 3:16; yet in v. 17 Jesus didn't really die for each and every person. Typical doublespeak! The "world" means one thing to you in v.16 and something else to you in v.17, even though it says that Jesus was sent into the world that God so dearly loved to [actually] save it! You just nilly willy destroy the parallel between the verses because it's an inconvenient, embarrassing truth, since most of of Christendom rightly disavows universal salvation! But God forbid that anyone should cast doubt or aspersions upon God's universal love for all mankind!
Of course, I do agree that Jesus' atoning work accomplished what he came to do and fulfilled his Father's intentions perfectly, just as I also understand that God does not and indeed cannot love the entire world, i.e. each and every person in it, as you believe. God loves only the living, not the dead because he's the God of only the living (Mk 12:27)! Besides, the world has always been filled with it shares of Esaus, hasn't it? But I suppose you still think that God loved him, too, while simultaneously hating him?
Of course, I do agree that Jesus' atoning work accomplished what he came to do and fulfilled his Father's intentions perfectly, just as I also understand that God does not and indeed cannot love the entire world, i.e. each and every person in it, as you believe. God loves only the living, not the dead because he's the God of only the living (Mk 12:27)! Besides, the world has always been filled with it shares of Esaus, hasn't it? But I suppose you still think that God loved him, too, while simultaneously hating him?
You should research the Hebrew before declaring the English translation as truth.
It's not,
Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
It's,
10 Shall the wicked be favored-who did not learn righteousness?
Isaiah is showing us the wicked are "rejecting" to learn righteousness so they won't ever be favored.
Hence why I mentioned those Noah preached to. They rejected and God killed them because of it.
It's not,
Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
It's,
10 Shall the wicked be favored-who did not learn righteousness?
Isaiah is showing us the wicked are "rejecting" to learn righteousness so they won't ever be favored.
Hence why I mentioned those Noah preached to. They rejected and God killed them because of it.
You obviously have no clue what my position is. In what you quote, you quoted me out of context. I was stating what the NR position SHOULD be if they applied the term "world" consistently. (The operative term here is "consistently".) Their naive and simplistic belief about this term is that it's always used in the distributive sense, such as they apply it to Jn 3:16, as they believe that God loves every single person in the world; yet when they get to v. 17, all of a sudden it's not used in that universal sense. They quickly sing another tune. Shiloh himself conceded today that v.17 doesn't say that Christ came to save "all" the world. At the same time, he was obviously to the fact that neither does v.16 say God so loved all the world!
Try to keep up #52, lest you embarrass yourself further. Everyone here but you, apparently, understands that I hold to the Five Doctrines of Grace. I have never hidden that fact!
Have a good evening, sir.
P.S. But I am grateful for your Mat 1:21 quote since it supports my argument.
Try to keep up #52, lest you embarrass yourself further. Everyone here but you, apparently, understands that I hold to the Five Doctrines of Grace. I have never hidden that fact!
Have a good evening, sir.
P.S. But I am grateful for your Mat 1:21 quote since it supports my argument.
The jury is still out on the question of election. The debate has been raging for the past 500 years, since Arminius and Calvin started the conflict. It all comes down to which interpretation appeals to the individual, so nobody can claim they poses the correct interpretation.
The Church will never reach a consensus on this issue. So the only thing the Church can do is agree to disagree for the sake of peace. The Arminians will never capitulate and neither will the Calvinists, so the debate will go on indefinitely.
The Church will never reach a consensus on this issue. So the only thing the Church can do is agree to disagree for the sake of peace. The Arminians will never capitulate and neither will the Calvinists, so the debate will go on indefinitely.