Should Jesus love you because you are a sinner 🤔

[Thunderrr-mental]

Just "in part" Say it ain't so


Although that question literally SCREAMS OUT for a thread of its own (as it will probably derail the purpose of this thread if it continues), I believe that a man's will is free as long as he is able to choose whatever he wants most at a given moment in time. So, when a man with a fallen/sinful/stony heart chooses to reject the Lord, he does so both freely, and in accordance with his (stony-heart) nature and desires, which is proof that his will is free, in point of fact. It's only when a man chooses to do something that is at odds with his nature, and (especially) at odds with what he desires most in the moment, that his will cannot be considered to be "free".

That is all that I will say here about that topic.

As to the topic at hand, nothing about our nature (whether we are a person who still has a heart of stone and is, therefore, an unbeliever, or whether we are a person who has been given a new heart of flesh, who is born again and who has already come to saving faith in Christ as a result) has anything to do with God's choice to love us, or not, because His love for us is not determined by something that He sees in us, or by something that we've done/said/thought, whether good or bad.

As I said previously, the basis for His choice to love us is found in who we are to Him, alone.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

Well I agree with you in part, which really was a good thing of me to say,.

Why I said I agree with you in part, is because you only gave me part on which I could agree upon.

The missing parts.

Can God stop himself from being all loving..

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Above I posted scripture about even the stoney heart is duty bound to obey God.

A drug addict could decide to obey God.

A lost child could decide to obey God.

But his heart is still stoney.

It remains stoney until God takes it away.

Yes, we call that the work of the Holy Spirit who draws sinners to Christ.

What I'm asking and saying, is part of removing a stubborn heart is that a person loves him, by walking in obedience to him.

Yes, once the Holy Spirit draws them and they respond. Then they come to Christ and He softens their hearts.

Because what I'm saying is the same seed he puts in two separate drug addicts, one gets there stoney heart removed one doesn't.

But yet His word says nothing will stop him from taking away a stoney heart.

“A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

 

[Deuteronomy]

Well I agree with you in part, which really was a good thing of me to say,.
Why I said I agree with you in part, is because you only gave me part on which I could agree upon.

For clarity's sake, where are we in agreement, and in which part(s) are we not Thanks

Can God stop himself from being all loving..

Which is like saying, "Can God lie..."? COULD He do either one? The answer is "yes". WILL He do either one? The answer is "no".

Also, while I agree in a very real sense with the idea that God is all-loving, the term all-loving/"omniloving" is found in the Book of Mormon/Book of Moroni, not in the Bible. On the other hand, the Bible does say that "God is love", so two questions come to mind now as a result.

​

1. Where do we find (at least indirectly) the idea that God is "ALL-loving" in the Bible ​

2. What does it mean (to you) that He is, "all-loving", that is (and what affect, if any, does it have on His other attributes, such as His holiness, righteousness and justice) ​

​

Thanks again

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)

 

[Deuteronomy]

Which is like saying, "Can God lie..."? COULD He do either one? The answer is "yes". WILL He do either one? The answer is "no".

Hello again Thunderrr-mental, I thought that I should add that the above was said in the philosophical sense, but there is also the real sense in which God CANNOT do either one, because (thankfully/according to the Bible) His Divine nature will not allow Him to. IOW, He not only WILL NOT do such things, He (in reality) CANNOT do them, because to do so would mean that He would have to violate/act in opposition to His own nature. The fact that He cannot do so is but one of the reasons that we can ALWAYS count on what He tells us and promises us as something that is true, and/or as something that will eventually come to pass

~Deuteronomy

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Yes, we call that the work of the Holy Spirit who draws sinners to Christ.





Yes, once the Holy Spirit draws them and they respond. Then they come to Christ and He softens their hearts.



“A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Yes, we call that the work of the Holy Spirit who draws sinners to Christ.





Yes, once the Holy Spirit draws them and they respond. Then they come to Christ and He softens their hearts.



“A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Well yes God word softens the heart, but according to scripture a person with a stoney heart is still duty bound to obey God.

If he can't respond to God without his heart being softened, how can he obey God.

Scriptures says over and over those with stoney heart where punished and they then responded.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Hello again Thunderrr-mental, I thought that I should add that the above was said in the philosophical sense, but there is also the real sense in which God CANNOT do either one, because (thankfully/according to the Bible) His Divine nature will not allow Him to. IOW, He not only WILL NOT do such things, He (in reality) CANNOT do them, because to do so would mean that He would have to violate/act in opposition to His own nature. The fact that He cannot do so is but one of the reasons that we can ALWAYS count on what He tells us and promises us as something that is true, and/or as something that will eventually come to pass

~Deuteronomy

his love and his nature

Can be seen here


Exodus 20:5

New International Version



5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

So it's saying here if You don't love God he will even punish your Children and there children and there Children, in biblical terms of 480 years, or it could last that long if your children live until there 120.

So the act of not loving God will get you 480 possible years of punishment.

Then God is back to being all loving again with you and your family.

 

[SACREDWARRIOR]

Hello,

WHICH CAME FIRST THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG?........

GOD KNEW and DETERMINED mans fall....He understood that His creation would be LESS than HIMSELF!
If we follow Pauls teaching on the Reason for the commandments, and other laws I.E as a tutor, they are meant to show us that GODS WAYS ARE HIGHER THAN OUR WAYS, and CAN NOT BE MET IN THE FLESH. Therefore, the plan of salvation was an eternal plan, devised and accomplished by the Creator himself.

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!!,
Clarence

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

In general, God is justified in sending everyone to hell. And even under the terms of the old covenant God is justified in condemning everyone to hell. But once God covenanted to send forth the seed of the woman, He was obligated to save enough for the seed to come through. This is made even more clear with the Abrahamic covenant.
The new covenant throws in another wrench. The new covenant is not between God and man, but between God the Father and God the Son. So depending on what Jesus means by all that the Father has given me, there seems to be an obligation between Father and Son to redeem whatever is given.

The words total depravity.

Does it actually exist in a stoney heart.

When man has inherited all knowledge of Good and evil.

Is the stoney heart based upon the conflict between Good and evil going on in the stoney heart.

Is it down to, some times in the day the knowledge of Good wins in the stoney heart, but others times of the day the knowledge of evil wins in the stoney heart.

As the bible says the darkness has never understood the light.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Hello,

WHICH CAME FIRST THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG?........

GOD KNEW and DETERMINED mans fall....He understood that His creation would be LESS than HIMSELF!
If we follow Pauls teaching on the Reason for the commandments, and other laws I.E as a tutor, they are meant to show us that GODS WAYS ARE HIGHER THAN OUR WAYS, and CAN NOT BE MET IN THE FLESH. Therefore, the plan of salvation was an eternal plan, devised and accomplished by the Creator himself.

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!!,
Clarence

did he determine it before the fall or after the fall.

And please provide scripture

 

[SACREDWARRIOR]

did he determine it before the fall or after the fall.

And please provide scripture

did he determine it before the fall or after the fall.

And please provide scripture

[Ephesians 1:4 NASB20] 4 just as HE CHOSE US in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

[Ephesians 1:4 NASB20] 4 just as HE CHOSE US in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

could you explain your understanding of this scripture thanks 😊

 

[Cameron143]

The words total depravity.

Does it actually exist in a stoney heart.

When man has inherited all knowledge of Good and evil.

Is the stoney heart based upon the conflict between Good and evil going on in the stoney heart.

Is it down to, some times in the day the knowledge of Good wins in the stoney heart, but others times of the day the knowledge of evil wins in the stoney heart.

As the bible says the darkness has never understood the light.

The heart of stone represents fallen man. It represents man's contrariness to God. He may understand good and evil, but he is unable to do what is right. This is what causes the conflict in Romans 7. The only deliverance is found in Christ. He provides a heart of flesh.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The heart of stone represents fallen man. It represents man's contrariness to God. He may understand good and evil, but he is unable to do what is right. This is what causes the conflict in Romans 7. The only deliverance is found in Christ. He provides a heart of flesh.

Well this is a fallen man Cain is it not.


Genesis 4:7

New International Version



7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

How is he able to rule over sin if he is unable to do what is right, or if his heart has total depravity.

And do notice it's not Cain who thinks he can rule over sin, It's God telling him he can.

 

[Cameron143]

Well this is a fallen man Cain is it not.


Genesis 4:7

New International Version



7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

How is he able to rule over sin if he is unable to do what is right, or if his heart has total depravity.

And do notice it's not Cain who thinks he can rule over sin, It's God telling him he can.

God never says Cain is capable. He only tells him if he does right it will be acceptable. And because God is gracious, He warns Cain of the great danger he is in.
Cain is pictured here for us in juxtaposition to Abel. And he is definitely a pictured of unregenerate man. Everything about him is contrary to God.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

God never says Cain is capable. He only tells him if he does right it will be acceptable. And because God is gracious, He warns Cain of the great danger he is in.
Cain is pictured here for us in juxtaposition to Abel. And he is definitely a pictured of unregenerate man. Everything about him is contrary to God.

But you said a stoney heart is unable to do what is right, and here is God telling a stoney heart he can do what is right, and be accepted by God.

But not just do what is right, but also rule over sin.

So it's either a stoney heart can not do what is right or he can

Which was is it according to God speaking here.



Genesis 4:7 Cain fallen man with a stoney heart, God speaking directly to him.


7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

 

[Cameron143]

But you said a stoney heart is unable to do what is right, and here is God telling a stoney heart he can do what is right, and be accepted by God.

But not just do what is right, but also rule over sin.

So it's either a stoney heart can not do what is right or he can

Which was is it according to God speaking here.



Genesis 4:7 Cain fallen man with a stoney heart, God speaking directly to him.


7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

I disagree that God is telling him as you say. God only tells him that if he does right it will be accepted; not that he can do right.
His notable inability to do right should have led Cain to admit this to God and ask concerning another way. That way has always been the seed of the woman...Christ. Cain wasn't willing to bring the correct sacrifice. He was not going to prostrate himself before God and ask for help.
We have no way of knowing how much of what I shared was known to Cain. God, over time, revealed the nature and outworking of salvation. But we do know that whatever was necessary for salvation was present as Abel did respond to God in faith.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I disagree that God is telling him as you say. God only tells him that if he does right it will be accepted; not that he can do right.
His notable inability to do right should have led Cain to admit this to God and ask concerning another way. That way has always been the seed of the woman...Christ. Cain wasn't willing to bring the correct sacrifice. He was not going to prostrate himself before God and ask for help.
We have no way of knowing how much of what I shared was known to Cain. God, over time, revealed the nature and outworking of salvation. But we do know that whatever was necessary for salvation was present as Abel did respond to God in faith.

You shouldn't be turning this around on me Cameron, I have only repeated what scripture says.

Which is God says theese words, if you do what is right cain you will be accepted.

Tell me Cameron does God say theese words to someone if he thought there was no way they could do what is right.

I mean your belief also says Gods knows what a person can do before they do it.

Do you think God plays games like this.

I have to say Cameron but to reject this scripture the way in which you have, really is up there with the biggest rejections for God's word I've ever heard.

 

[Cameron143]

You shouldn't be turning this around on me Cameron, I have only repeated what scripture says.

Which is God says theese words, if you do what is right cain you will be accepted.

Tell me Cameron does God say theese words to someone if he thought there was no way they could do what is right.

I mean your belief also says Gods knows what a person can do before they do it.

Do you think God plays games like this.

I have to say Cameron but to reject this scripture the way in which you have, really is up there with the biggest rejections for God's word I've ever heard.

God didn't say anything wrong. But God didn't say everything at once either. We have the benefit of the full canon of scripture. Simply because something appears later in scripture doesn't mean it wasn't always true. Salvation has always been by grace through faith.
Another interesting consideration is that God doesn't say if you bring a different sacrifice it will be accepted. He does say if you do RIGHT, will he not be accepted. But an unregenerate fallen man cannot do righteousness. Even if Cain brought the same offering as Abel, it would have still not been accepted of God if it wasn't accompanied by the requisite internal motivation of the heart.
It would be worth your while to study Isaiah 58. God doesn't accept his people's fasts or sabbath practices. The problem wasn't their outward observances of these things, but their inward practice. This is similar to what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. Outward practices of religion that are correct in form but void of love mean nothing to God.
I realize the consideration of the things that I have shared may be new to you. But while Cain may have been able to relate to God outwardly, he did not possess within him the ability to do that which is pleasing and acceptable to God.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

God didn't say anything wrong. But God didn't say everything at once either. We have the benefit of the full canon of scripture. Simply because something appears later in scripture doesn't mean it wasn't always true. Salvation has always been by grace through faith.
Another interesting consideration is that God doesn't say if you bring a different sacrifice it will be accepted. He does say if you do RIGHT, will he not be accepted. But an unregenerate fallen man cannot do righteousness. Even if Cain brought the same offering as Abel, it would have still not been accepted of God if it wasn't accompanied by the requisite internal motivation of the heart.
It would be worth your while to study Isaiah 58. God doesn't accept his people's fasts or sabbath practices. The problem wasn't their outward observances of these things, but their inward practice. This is similar to what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. Outward practices of religion that are correct in form but void of love mean nothing to God.
I realize the consideration of the things that I have shared may be new to you. But while Cain may have been able to relate to God outwardly, he did not possess within him the ability to do that which is pleasing and acceptable to God.

Cain had already brought the wrong sacrifice, and he was all gloomy when God rejected it.

Then God said what he said, having affection for Cain after seeing him all gloomy.

His brother able who was also in a fallen state, and he did what was right and pleased God and God accepted him, because he did what was right.



God was telling Cain if he does what is right, you will also be accepted


Well obviously he was also saying don't let your jealousy get the better of you and strike cain.


So God was pre warning Cain knowing his future,..which means we all have the ability to change our future by doing what is right.

But only this was after the fall, when God knew what man would do next.

Where as before the fall he never knew what man would do next.


The underlying fact is God said to Cain you can rule over sin, which means all tho God knew he would strike his brother, Cain could of chose not to, and that would of changed his future.

So once again we See Good not predetermining there future,.but only knowing it, because he has made man live in a past time to his after the fall of man.

This lines up every where in scripture, God prewarns people.

 

[SACREDWARRIOR]

could you explain your understanding of this scripture thanks 😊

[REVELATION 13:8 NASB20] 8 All who live on the earth will worship him, [everyone] whose name has not BEEN WRITTEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered.

SOVEREIGN GRACE IS LITERALLY ON EVERY PAGE OF SCRIPTURE.....in the end it doesnt matter.....IF YOU ARE SAVED YOU ARE SAVED...but comparison of scripture to scripture shows the complete knowledge and choosing of those whom are called the ELECT.....

I've been on both sides of the debate, Armenian & sovereignty... I AM FIRMLY FOUNDED ON SOVEREIGN ELECTION .

so, this is my last post on the subject.
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!!
Clarence