Predestination is misunderstood...

[HeIsHere]

Again you misstate my position, even after I went to some length to explain it. People can be persuaded of the truth of the gospel, recognize they are sinners, and even experience an earthly sorrow as a result of a convicting conscience. None of that will result in them being born again. That alone is the work of God. Giving hearing is but one aspect of the work of the Spirit in genuine salvation.
This is why I took the time to answer as I did with your last post. You aren't truly interested in understanding, you believe the answer to your question will allow you to dismiss my argument and give assent to yours. But you could do that without my answer. So something is sticking in your craw. Perhaps that's why you didn't care for the foundation I laid.
But as I like getting answers to my questions and will know your true intentions by your response, I'll answer your question...both what is actually asked and what you intended in the question. I have no way of knowing whether babies in the womb who die are saved or not. No one knows. I believe God can save anyone anywhere anytime. I personally believe John the Baptist was saved in the womb. But even children in the womb must be born from above to see the kingdom of God. There is no exception. You must be born again. And this requires the activity of God.
How this transpires I do not know. Does it happen for some? All? None? Don't know.

I begin with the sovereignty of God. And I believe He chooses.

I am just going by this statement and I am just wondering if you have extrapolated out this belief that God chooses to it logical end.

The only thing that sticks in my craw is bad theology that makes God a moral monster who chooses some and leaves others in their fallen state because He did not choose them.

Now, I do not know if you adhere to this because you are not really clear on it, but when you state He chooses and allude to limited atonement I tend to think this is your view of the plan of salvation.

I will argue against this view, I find it abhorrent, so yeah it sticks in my craw not because there is something wrong with me as in I am biased/jaded but because it is objectively and biblically wrong.

 

[Cameron143]

But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.

In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

Jesus Christ declared that Abel was righteous (Matthew 23:35) and the writer of Hebrews tells us: Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaks. (Hebrews 11:4)

Joseph, the husband of Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a just man (Matthew 1:19), and Jesus commended Nathanael for being an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile (John 1:47). We also read of Joseph of Arimathaea who was a good and just man (Luke 23:50-51).

Every person you mentioned had a relationship with God except Cain. What were they like before the grace of God came to them?

 

[Mem]

Verse

You only answered one of my two questions. I was asking for the answer to the other question that you overlooked. But I can save you the effort.

Acts 13:43 tells us when the believing and rejoicing gentiles referred to believed the gospel and had been appointed to aeonous life.

43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

v44 tells us that the next sabbath Paul spoke in the open in the city, and that is where he announces God's call to him to go to the gentiles and take the gospel to them not bothering to go to Jews first.

I see, but I'm not sure I follow that understanding exactly.

I read "and as many as had been appointed to aeonous life, believed the gospel." I'll reword the declaration without changing the meaning...

"as many as had been appointed" and "believed the gospel" is an identity claim here, that is, a=a, they are one and the same subject. Paul is telling us that, "as many as had believed the gospel had been appointed to aeonous life."

Keep in mind that none of us will wholy realize aeonous life until the last day, when we all stand together in the resurrection. So we are, too, have been "appointed to aeonous life."

 

[Mem]

Every person you mentioned had a relationship with God except Cain. What were they like before the grace of God came to them?

God spoke to Cain, and God extended his grace to Cain when he spoke to him. it's just that Cain didn't, he wasn't willing to, listen.

 

[PaulThomson]

I begin with the sovereignty of God.

Where is "the sovereignty of God" mentioned in the Bible? Why do you start with some idea that is not in the Bible, and build the rest of your doctrines on top of that sand?

 

[PaulThomson]

I see, but I'm not sure I follow that understanding exactly.

I read "and as many as had been appointed to aeonous life, believed the gospel." I'll reword the declaration without changing the meaning...

"as many as had been appointed" and "believed the gospel" is an identity claim here, that is, a=a, they are one and the same subject. Paul is telling us that, "as many as had believed the gospel had been appointed to aeonous life."

Keep in mind that none of us will wholy realize aeonous life until the last day, when we all stand together in the resurrection. So we are, too, have been "appointed to aeonous life."

The text does not say they believed the gospel?

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as had been ordained (pluperfect tense) to eternal life believed [this].

The week before -

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.



43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

 

[HeIsHere]

Every person you mentioned had a relationship with God except Cain. What were they like before the grace of God came to them?

Your presupposition is that they behaved and/or were regarded good by God based on His imparted Grace.
That is you reading into the text to support your conclusion.

Exhibit #2
“Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23 “For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 “The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; … 26 and He made from one [man] every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined [their] appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;


"The purveyors of total depravity seem bent on gathering only those who would tolerate being denigrated before being regenerated."
Mark Deckard

 

[Genez]

But my point is that truth is not only sets of propositions. Propositions are only one of at least four ways to experience truth. To focus almost exclusively on propositions in the search for truth is insufficient to gain the full freedom Jesus promised would come from knowing the truth.

Sounds like you want a more subjective way to truth?....
One where you can be immersed into a problem that enslaves first, without first gaining truth defined to avoid it.

You will still need the propositions in the end.

You sound like a "resistive" way of thinking. One at work against first learning truth before you can need it...
Its a more curative approach, rather than preventative approach. .

Well then... you want it that way?
Go get scurvy.. and then suck on the limes.
If that's what you want to find truth? Go for it.

The preventative approach is the wise approach because God offers it that way..
The preventative approach is submitting to God by first learning truth before the need may arise.

There is an argument for everything, Mr. Paul Thomson.
Go it your way. Let others go it the way they know best....

The army does not prepare you for battle by thrusting you into battle, and then afterwards give you basic training.

 

[Cameron143]

I am just going by this statement and I am just wondering if you have extrapolated out this belief that God chooses to it logical end.

The only thing that sticks in my craw is bad theology that makes God a moral monster who chooses some and leaves others in their fallen state because He did not choose them.

Now, I do not know if you adhere to this because you are not really clear on it, but when you state He chooses and allude to limited atonement I tend to think this is your view of the plan of salvation.

I will argue against this view, I find it abhorrent, so yeah it sticks in my craw not because there is something wrong with me as in I am biased/jaded but because it is objectively and biblically wrong.

I believe in limited atonement because I believe it is unjust to accept payment for a debt and then demand payment a second time.
I believe apart from the grace of God that produces faith no one gets saved. So if grace is the beginning of salvation, then it is always initiated by God. If this is so, God did the choosing.
Your sensibilities are offended because this doesn't comport well with what you believe to be true of God. That's why I breached the subject of fair verses just. Justice is based on behavior verses a standard...it deals legally with what is right and wrong. The Judge of all the earth will always do right; meaning He will always act righteously. But He is not 0always fair. Fairness is not about behavior against a standard, but a behavior against another behavior.
I understand that fairness today has a negative connection. But God is also good. He doesn't deal differently with people as men do. He doesn't stop being good as He deals with people.
But one of the things that I find inconsistent in people is what offends them. For example, are you ok that God dealt almost exclusively with Israel in the OT to the detriment of all the other nations? Are you offended that God chose for Satan to destroy Job? Are you offended that God chose salvation for man, but not angels?
God has mercy on whom He has mercy. He chooses what He does. When that seems inconsistent with what we believe is true of Him, it is for us to alter our beliefs and not what is true of God.

 

[Genez]

The text does not say they believed the gospel?

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as had been ordained (pluperfect tense) to eternal life believed [this].

The week before -

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.



43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Quoting the King James reveals something about the thinking capacity of the one who uses it.

 

[Cameron143]

Your presupposition is that they behaved and/or were regarded good by God based on His imparted Grace.
That is you reading into the text to support your conclusion.

Exhibit #2
“Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23 “For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 “The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; … 26 and He made from one [man] every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined [their] appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;


"The purveyors of total depravity seem bent on gathering only those who would tolerate being denigrated before being regenerated."
Mark Deckard

That passsage speaks of the goodness of God, and not men. It tells how God has and is working to bring men to seek for Him. So good is God that He has worked all the circumstances of their lives that they would seek Him. And yet, unless God, in grace, intervenes, they do not. Not one of them sought after God. Some mocked. Some said later.

 

[Cameron143]

God spoke to Cain, and God extended his grace to Cain when he spoke to him. it's just that Cain didn't, he wasn't willing to, listen.

Did God's grace to Cain produce faith in him?

 

[Cameron143]

Where is "the sovereignty of God" mentioned in the Bible? Why do you start with some idea that is not in the Bible, and build the rest of your doctrines on top of that sand?

Do you believe that Daniel 4:35 speaks to the sovereignty God? Are you suggesting that there is some entity that exists that can hinder God in any way?

 

[Mem]

Did God's grace to Cain produce faith in him?

Cain chose to retain his anger and resentment.

 

[Mem]

The text does not say they believed the gospel?

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as had been ordained (pluperfect tense) to eternal life believed [this].

The week before -

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.



43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

How can anyone continue in anything, in the case the grace of God (which summarizes the gospel), if they hadn't accepted it to begin with?

 

[Cameron143]

Cain chose to retain his anger and resentment.

Of course he did. But that wasn't the question. Did God's grace towards Cain produce faith in Cain?

 

[Mem]

Of course he did. But that wasn't the question. Did God's grace towards Cain produce faith in Cain?

I wish you and other would refrain from approach me as at second grade student. It only makes me wonder what you think the answer to this should be. That God's grace toward Cain was impotent?

 

[Cameron143]

I wish you and other would refrain from approach me as at second grade student. It only makes me wonder what you think the answer to this should be. That God's grace toward Cain was impotent?

My apologies. It was never my intention to demean you in any way..I ask questions to better understand why people believe as they do, and not to belittle them.
God's grace was not impotent towards Cain. God exhibited common grace towards him, as He does for all mankind. But the grace that God exhibits in salvation always produces faith in the one to whom it is extended. It is part and parcel of salvation. That his offering was unacceptable, and his behavior is inconsistent with saving grace, I believe no such grace was ever extended.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

On some level I do agree with you, in the sense we are all created in the image of God.

Total depravity/original sin is easily refuted, Augustine brought Manichaeism into Christian thought and it is still unable to shake this heresy.

Cornelius, a Gentile centurion from Caesarea. The Bible says he was a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always (Acts 10:1-2).

In Romans 1:18 until 3:18 Paul is not teaching that man is inherently depraved. In actuality, Paul says, “that which may be known of God is manifest IN THEM; for God hath shewed it unto them” (1:19).

The human race in its fallen condition isn’t inherently depraved, for man possess both the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22).

Having knowledge of Good and evil is one thing but knowing what to do with it is another.

Total depravity is talked about in away that man can not regenerate without God. Which man can't, maybe the word totally depravity is hard for people to take on board as people also choose to wants to know what God's will is for them, rather than they try to understand What God's will is.

Gods will is everything.



But people link will , as an inheritance also, but it's more than That when it comes to Gods will.

Like can you claim on a will, with the knowledge that you have not being proven.

You can will people to pay you your inheritance all day long, but without proven knowledge, nobody is going to pay you your inheritance.

This is How it is For God, unless your heart understands What God's will is saying in your heart, your heart is not going to be transformed.

Only God has that knowledge and only God can prove your heart will understand.

So when I talk about a will being in all men, what I'm talking about is in many instances, the main instance, being God places his word in your heart and all man's hearts. His word is a light and a seed.

This is one will,

Then theres another will, which is God making man live in past time.

So that God knows what man will do before he does it.

But does man also get notification to, not to sin before they sin.

As just the knowledge is not enough.

 

[Genez]

Did God's grace to Cain produce faith in him?

God's grace provided the setting which offered the opportunity to have faith. Grace momentarily took control over his flesh, but not his soul, to decide with his soul.

Just like we saw in Romans 1:18-23, with those who turned out to be the worst kind of reprobate. God made them able to know God is real.