Predestination is misunderstood...
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Total depravity means incapable of doing anything acceptable to God unless God regenerates first. One only has to look at the proof texts used to support total depravity and what those using them are asserting those texts teach, to understand what those eisegetes mean by total depravity.
If one takes account of the tenses used in "there is none good, no not one" it is written to the Jews, and says none continuously keeps on doing good. In other words, all have sinned. All need to acknowledge their sins and look in faith to God and Jesus Christ. It is not a statement that nothing anyone does is good, as total inability asserts.
If one takes account of the tenses used in "there is none good, no not one" it is written to the Jews, and says none continuously keeps on doing good. In other words, all have sinned. All need to acknowledge their sins and look in faith to God and Jesus Christ. It is not a statement that nothing anyone does is good, as total inability asserts.
That's based on Hebrews 11...without faith it is impossible to please God and that there are no good humans in the natural estate...Romans 3.
Even if I grant you that it was written to Jews, that doesn't of necessity mean it doesn't apply to the natural man in general. That's like saying God spoke the great commission to Jews so it doesn't apply to us today.
So...what did you do before you were saved that was good and pleased God?
Even if I grant you that it was written to Jews, that doesn't of necessity mean it doesn't apply to the natural man in general. That's like saying God spoke the great commission to Jews so it doesn't apply to us today.
So...what did you do before you were saved that was good and pleased God?
Please allow me to chime in here. The natural unregenerate man, can do things which seem to be good outwardly but God looks at the heart where He sees the motive.
Even the infidels love and provide for their children, just like philanthropists like Bill Gates do. God sees our deepest motives and intentions, while men can only see the outward good deeds we do.
A truly good person would lay down His life for His enemies, now that's a true measure of goodness.
Even the infidels love and provide for their children, just like philanthropists like Bill Gates do. God sees our deepest motives and intentions, while men can only see the outward good deeds we do.
A truly good person would lay down His life for His enemies, now that's a true measure of goodness.
I showed scriptures that says God is fair. It's His word against your claim. 
Yes, it is necessary to deal with people differently because it would be unfair to treat people exactly the same and expect to get the same result. (eg. dealing with a 2yo compared to a 10yo)
And I agreed they are related and within certain contexts they are interchangeable. (eg. the dictionary synonyms I gave you)
But that is not a story about justice without fairness. That is a story about "not presuming upon the kindness of God". (Rom.2:4)
It has nothing to do with the boss being unfair and everything to do with the presumptuous and arrogant attitude of the workers who think they have the right to demand more because their boss is generous. The boss was perfectly fair. He paid the men what they agreed to. The only way the boss could have been unfair in that instance is to have paid them less than what they agreed to.
You say it was unfair which is exactly what the workers thought yet Jesus said they were wrong to think that way. Are you ready to rethink your position yet?
Fairness has been the issue in our discussion but you keep insisting your idea of fairness is right even though I have shown you this is how the world thinks, not how God thinks.
The standard for both justice and fairness is righteousness. Both justice and fairness flow out from doing what is right and that flows out from wisdom. Knowing the mind of Christ is our wisdom.
Proverbs 1:3
for receiving instruction in prudent behavior, doing what is right and just and fair;
I don't believe you are in a strong position to instruct anyone in what constitutes justice and fairness.
Yes, it is necessary to deal with people differently because it would be unfair to treat people exactly the same and expect to get the same result. (eg. dealing with a 2yo compared to a 10yo)
And I agreed they are related and within certain contexts they are interchangeable. (eg. the dictionary synonyms I gave you)
But that is not a story about justice without fairness. That is a story about "not presuming upon the kindness of God". (Rom.2:4)
It has nothing to do with the boss being unfair and everything to do with the presumptuous and arrogant attitude of the workers who think they have the right to demand more because their boss is generous. The boss was perfectly fair. He paid the men what they agreed to. The only way the boss could have been unfair in that instance is to have paid them less than what they agreed to.
You say it was unfair which is exactly what the workers thought yet Jesus said they were wrong to think that way. Are you ready to rethink your position yet?
Fairness has been the issue in our discussion but you keep insisting your idea of fairness is right even though I have shown you this is how the world thinks, not how God thinks.
The standard for both justice and fairness is righteousness. Both justice and fairness flow out from doing what is right and that flows out from wisdom. Knowing the mind of Christ is our wisdom.
Proverbs 1:3
for receiving instruction in prudent behavior, doing what is right and just and fair;
I don't believe you are in a strong position to instruct anyone in what constitutes justice and fairness.
Did you visit your grandmother to the glory of God?
I said it was degree referring to the corruption of man. When Adam sinned, he could still think, he had emotions, and could exercise his will. But he couldn't do so as he did before. This isn't hard to demonstrate. He felt shame for the first time, he felt fear for the first time, he hid from God for the first time, he made clothing for the first time, and he blamed God for the first time. Something was terribly different. But all those things testify that his mind was still working, his heart was still functioning, and his will was still evident.
Doing good is a related issue, but it doesn't evidence total corruption of Adam as you suppose. Rather, it reflects that his capacity due to the effects of sin render him incapable in and of himself to do good. His heart which was once towards God is now desperately wicked and deceitful above all things. The center of man's being has been corrupted which is the wellspring of his life. He can still be moved by his emotions, but his emotions have been corrupted. Before sin, his emotions were love and peace and joy. After, shame and fear. Later we find both anger and depression with Cain. Man is no longer good.
I said it was degree referring to the corruption of man. When Adam sinned, he could still think, he had emotions, and could exercise his will. But he couldn't do so as he did before. This isn't hard to demonstrate. He felt shame for the first time, he felt fear for the first time, he hid from God for the first time, he made clothing for the first time, and he blamed God for the first time. Something was terribly different. But all those things testify that his mind was still working, his heart was still functioning, and his will was still evident.
Doing good is a related issue, but it doesn't evidence total corruption of Adam as you suppose. Rather, it reflects that his capacity due to the effects of sin render him incapable in and of himself to do good. His heart which was once towards God is now desperately wicked and deceitful above all things. The center of man's being has been corrupted which is the wellspring of his life. He can still be moved by his emotions, but his emotions have been corrupted. Before sin, his emotions were love and peace and joy. After, shame and fear. Later we find both anger and depression with Cain. Man is no longer good.
Strewth, and here's me thinking all we needed to know was the truth!
John 8:32
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
John 8:32
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Verse
You only answered one of my two questions. I was asking for the answer to the other question that you overlooked. But I can save you the effort.
Acts 13:43 tells us when the believing and rejoicing gentiles referred to believed the gospel and had been appointed to aeonous life.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
v44 tells us that the next sabbath Paul spoke in the open in the city, and that is where he announces God's call to him to go to the gentiles and take the gospel to them not bothering to go to Jews first.
You only answered one of my two questions. I was asking for the answer to the other question that you overlooked. But I can save you the effort.
Acts 13:43 tells us when the believing and rejoicing gentiles referred to believed the gospel and had been appointed to aeonous life.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
v44 tells us that the next sabbath Paul spoke in the open in the city, and that is where he announces God's call to him to go to the gentiles and take the gospel to them not bothering to go to Jews first.
The psuchikos man walks according to his mental programming. The carnal man walks according to his instinctual programming. The spiritual man walks according to what God is speaking to his spirit. Romans 8. I do not have to be regenerated to respond to the voice of God to my conscience at times i.e. to be a spiritual man. Regeneration and the presence of the Holy Spirit in my renewed spirit after regeneration makes living from my spirit easier, since the resurrection power of God is united to me and works in me both to will consistently and to do consistently what pleases him, if I depend on Him for that power..
But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.
In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.
Jesus Christ declared that Abel was righteous (Matthew 23:35) and the writer of Hebrews tells us: Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaks. (Hebrews 11:4)
Joseph, the husband of Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a just man (Matthew 1:19), and Jesus commended Nathanael for being an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile (John 1:47). We also read of Joseph of Arimathaea who was a good and just man (Luke 23:50-51).
In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.
Jesus Christ declared that Abel was righteous (Matthew 23:35) and the writer of Hebrews tells us: Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaks. (Hebrews 11:4)
Joseph, the husband of Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a just man (Matthew 1:19), and Jesus commended Nathanael for being an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile (John 1:47). We also read of Joseph of Arimathaea who was a good and just man (Luke 23:50-51).
On some level I do agree with you, in the sense we are all created in the image of God.
Total depravity/original sin is easily refuted, Augustine brought Manichaeism into Christian thought and it is still unable to shake this heresy.
Cornelius, a Gentile centurion from Caesarea. The Bible says he was a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always (Acts 10:1-2).
In Romans 1:18 until 3:18 Paul is not teaching that man is inherently depraved. In actuality, Paul says, “that which may be known of God is manifest IN THEM; for God hath shewed it unto them” (1:19).
The human race in its fallen condition isn’t inherently depraved, for man possess both the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22).
Total depravity/original sin is easily refuted, Augustine brought Manichaeism into Christian thought and it is still unable to shake this heresy.
Cornelius, a Gentile centurion from Caesarea. The Bible says he was a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always (Acts 10:1-2).
In Romans 1:18 until 3:18 Paul is not teaching that man is inherently depraved. In actuality, Paul says, “that which may be known of God is manifest IN THEM; for God hath shewed it unto them” (1:19).
The human race in its fallen condition isn’t inherently depraved, for man possess both the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22).