Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,470
591
113
Christ did not die for those people whose names were not written in the Lambs Book of life, their destiny has always been to be deceived into perdition with the devil

Rev 13 8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17 8

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev 20 15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 

BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
409
178
43
Texas
That's an excellent way of putting it! (y) PREPARATION! And that concept fits in perfectly with my New Birth Analogy in my 1869. Isn't conception all about that? That tiny life is in the womb for 9 months for a reason. It's being "prepared" and tenderly nurtured and nourished and protected by its mother for the big event -- BIRTH! It needs all that TLC so that it can survive in a world that is hostile and cruel and uncaring. It needs to be born healthy and strong. And so it would be with God's elect! At some point in our life, God enters it and starts to change our course of thinking, usually by the Word of God, by one or more other Christians entering into our lives, by select extra-biblical material providentially deposited into our laps, by peculiar circumstances in which we have never found ourselves previously, etc., etc. God has an infinite number of ways to bring us safely and finally to the point of "delivery" -- and in each case all individually tailored since he's greater than our hearts and knows each of us better than we know ourselves.

Again...I think the Cornelius narrative in Acts 10 is an excellent illustration of God preparing him, his family and close friends for the Big Event, i.e. the New Birth for which God used Peter to facilitate! Evidently, Cornelius and others close to him were very likely Gentile proselytes. They had converted to Judaism --- but now it was time to leave the "womb" of Judaism to hear the Gospel and take the Name of Christ for their own by becoming Christians. And the huge tip offs that this is very likely the case is that Cornelius was a God-fearer and God was pleased with him! God was pleased with him because He was already very active in this Gentile's heart! Cornelius was very likely spiritually alive when that angel visited him, but he hadn't left the "womb" yet. The actual birth didn't occur until Peter's visit. This all reminds me of one of my favorite NT passages:

Phil 1:6
6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
NIV

Thanks for sharing. I plan on expanding my analogy with your idea for future use.
I went back to you 1869 post and re-read your analogy. I'm not sure that it needs to be expanded in any way, but if my expressed thoughts have triggered a new thought – then GO FOR IT!

I am a true believer in iron sharpens iron! You never know what you may hear or from whom it will come, which will give you an idea to tuck away in your mind.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
715
113
Christ did not die for those people whose names were not written in the Lambs Book of life, their destiny has always been to be deceived into perdition with the devil

Rev 13 8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17 8

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev 20 15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The Beast is in the future, so THOSE PEOPLE in Revelation 13/17 not written haven't happened yet.

That means everyone else is written in the Book of Life until they do as God told Moses 33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
715
113
Its all good, but Im going to pass for right now on further discussion with you on this matter
This is hilarious. For 10 pages you told Rufus he was a genius. But the moment you learn he's not a puppet you suddenly want to stop all communications. You are predictable.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,661
5,908
113
I believe what the Word says, that Christ died for sinners, that He loves the sinner yet cannot tolerate sin and He wishes none would go to hell. God loves the sinner, He is married to the backslider. You want to see how far God's grace goes, look at the Jews. To this day God is calling them to repent and come home.
Amen it’s not that deep boy some names are written on his book of life …itnis that some will be blotted out if they reject the gospel

the idea tbat names were t in here to begin with is erroneous

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:33‬ ‭

The name was already in the book l names are some are blotted out of the book it isn’t that they were never there we’ve been given a repreive

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; ( our sins can be blotted out rather than our name )

and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The mercies of David

“Hide thy face from my sins, And blot out all mine iniquities.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭51:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all sinners will be blotted out of the book of life based on thier own works falling short

but those who repent and accept the gospel will not be blotted out instead thier sins are blotted out and they are received as if they had not sinned being clothed with the one who did not sin but died to pay for thiers
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,059
415
83
I went back to you 1869 post and re-read your analogy. I'm not sure that it needs to be expanded in any way, but if my expressed thoughts have triggered a new thought – then GO FOR IT!

I am a true believer in iron sharpens iron! You never know what you may hear or from whom it will come, which will give you an idea to tuck away in your mind.
Yes, your post presented an aspect to birth that had not occurred to me -- "preparation". Not only that but growth itself begins in the womb, not outside of it. You indeed sharpened my understanding. (y) Thanks again.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,059
415
83
Amen it’s not that deep boy some names are written on his book of life …itnis that some will be blotted out if they reject the gospel

the idea tbat names were t in here to begin with is erroneous

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:33‬ ‭

The name was already in the book l names are some are blotted out of the book it isn’t that they were never there we’ve been given a repreive

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; ( our sins can be blotted out rather than our name )

and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The mercies of David

“Hide thy face from my sins, And blot out all mine iniquities.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭51:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all sinners will be blotted out of the book of life based on thier own works falling short

but those who repent and accept the gospel will not be blotted out instead thier sins are blotted out and they are received as if they had not sinned being clothed with the one who did not sin but died to pay for thiers
The book of the living is not the same as the book of life. See my 1906 and 1910 wherein I refuted the conflation of the two, as GotQuestions.org did, as well.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
715
113
The book of the living is not the same as the book of life. See my 1906 and 1910 wherein I refuted the conflation of the two, as GotQuestions.org did, as well.
We don't abide by that website. This is their proclamation "Got Questions is a Calvinist/Reformed website."

Why would we go to a site that is clueless?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,059
415
83
We don't abide by that website. This is their proclamation "Got Questions is a Calvinist/Reformed website."

Why would we go to a site that is clueless?
You have it backwards as to who the clueless ones are. Plus the very context of the Ex 32 passage refutes the conflation, as I pointed out in my 1910. Moreover, the "book of the living" and the "land of the living" stand in contrast with many OT passages that speak about the realm of the dead, i.e. Sheol.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
715
113
You have it backwards as to who the clueless ones are. Plus the very context of the Ex 32 passage refutes the conflation, as I pointed out in my 1910. Moreover, the "book of the living" and the "land of the living" stand in contrast with many OT passages that speak about the realm of the dead, i.e. Sheol.
What is the opposite meaning to this verse?
33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.

If they do not sin against God will they remain in the Book?

How long do they remain in God's Book?
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,835
2,088
113
Here we go again!!!!

IGNORING THE CALVINIST THEOLOGY OF ELECTION, because it's totally unimportant, the Evangelist doesn't know who's "elect", or who's not, and the individual doesn't know whether they're "elect" or not before they're saved, so essentially "Election" means nothing of practical value.

Roman 9 makes it clear that GOD DRAWS PEOPLE TO JESUS according to HIS WILL. The "Drawing" (in my case) was CONVICTION OF SIN by the Holy Spirit. If a Person is CONVICTED OF THEIR SIN, then the ball's in their court to REPENT OF THEIR SIN, and call out to God in FAITH for His salvation by the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross. When they do, they are Christians at that point, and indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

IF a person is convicted of their SIN by the Holy Spirit, then they KNOW that they're "ELECT" - period. God doesn't call those who are NOT ELECT. Simple as that.

If a person IS NOT convicted of their sin, they won't even be thinking seriously about God, or anything to do with Him.
So only the elect are convicted of sin. Is that it?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,661
5,908
113
The book of the living is not the same as the book of life. See my 1906 and 1910 wherein I refuted the conflation of the two, as GotQuestions.org did, as well.
Yeah people here are always refuting things lol and then someone refutes them then someone else refutes them ect ect

scripture sort of is what I’m interested in what it says rather than everyone’s refuting of the other guy what scriptures are you referring to and I’ll take a look ?

Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,

And not be written with the righteous.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭69:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,

but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the only book that matters and the only one that bears the names of the living in Christ to understand what he’s saying look at the ot first

“And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin–; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Another way to say “one is blotted out of the book of life “ is to say

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But then

“..They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, There is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so now everyone has sinned and is held to death all is lost for mankind …but again the lord looked upon us and in his mercy began to say something new that would change everything about the names in the book that were blotted out because of sin those souls who now would die for sin he began to say

“I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭43:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And then came repentance and request of a man after Gods own heart for his many sins against the lord and man

“Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: According unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: And my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: That thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: And in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; That the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, And blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; And renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; And take not thy holy spirit from me. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; And sinners shall be converted unto thee. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: And my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. O Lord, open thou my lips; And my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: Thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: A broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭51:1-11, 13-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What happens to the names written in the book from the beginning if the people sins are what’s blotted out ????

Remembering why the names were removed is because of thier sin ? Then the names don’t have to be blotted out because thier sins were instead

“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems simple everyone is going to be blotted out unless they accept the gospel which is the true “book of life” tree of life “ word of life “ whichever we call it because it is the gospel alone that promises everlasting life a book is just referencing the word.

The books opened up before the book of life are then names of all the dead that just appeared only those left wrotten on the book and weren’t blotted out are saved is the idea only those who ….

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.( the word of life )

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( in the book of life )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( not in the book of life )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s how I see it just an old man’s opinion but the life in the Bible is to believe the gospel and the death in the Bible is to reject the gospel

that’s what all the imagery is usually about the gospel
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,470
591
113
The Beast is in the future, so THOSE PEOPLE in Revelation 13/17 not written haven't happened yet.

That means everyone else is written in the Book of Life until they do as God told Moses 33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.
Christ did not die for those people whose names were not written in the Lambs Book of life, their destiny has always been to be deceived into perdition with the devil

Rev 13 8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17 8

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev 20 15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
715
113
Christ did not die for those people whose names were not written in the Lambs Book of life, their destiny has always been to be deceived into perdition with the devil

Rev 13 8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17 8

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev 20 15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die

According to this verse ^ God did die for them while knowing they would choose to worship the Beast.

And even though they were never written in the Book of Life, by them worshiping the Beast (sinning against God) fulfills this verse 33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,059
415
83
As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die

According to this verse ^ God did die for them while knowing they would choose to worship the Beast.

And even though they were never written in the Book of Life, by them worshiping the Beast (sinning against God) fulfills this verse 33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.
The verse doesn't say anything about God dying for them. And it's no wonder since God cannot die. Only God-incarnate can do that. :rolleyes:
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
715
113
The verse doesn't say anything about God dying for them. And it's no wonder since God cannot die. Only God-incarnate can do that. :rolleyes:
It's the LORD talking in these verses. Jesus is the LORD.

As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die

According to this verse ^ God did die for them while knowing they would choose to worship the Beast.

And even though they were never written in the Book of Life, by them worshiping the Beast (sinning against God) fulfills this verse 33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,059
415
83
Yeah people here are always refuting things lol and then someone refutes them then someone else refutes them ect ect

scripture sort of is what I’m interested in what it says rather than everyone’s refuting of the other guy what scriptures are you referring to and I’ll take a look ?

Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,

And not be written with the righteous.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭69:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,

but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the only book that matters and the only one that bears the names of the living in Christ to understand what he’s saying look at the ot first

“And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin–; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Another way to say “one is blotted out of the book of life “ is to say

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But then

“..They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, There is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so now everyone has sinned and is held to death all is lost for mankind …but again the lord looked upon us and in his mercy began to say something new that would change everything about the names in the book that were blotted out because of sin those souls who now would die for sin he began to say

“I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭43:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And then came repentance and request of a man after Gods own heart for his many sins against the lord and man

“Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: According unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: And my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: That thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: And in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; That the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, And blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; And renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; And take not thy holy spirit from me. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; And sinners shall be converted unto thee. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: And my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. O Lord, open thou my lips; And my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: Thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: A broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭51:1-11, 13-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What happens to the names written in the book from the beginning if the people sins are what’s blotted out ????

Remembering why the names were removed is because of thier sin ? Then the names don’t have to be blotted out because thier sins were instead

“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems simple everyone is going to be blotted out unless they accept the gospel which is the true “book of life” tree of life “ word of life “ whichever we call it because it is the gospel alone that promises everlasting life a book is just referencing the word.

The books opened up before the book of life are then names of all the dead that just appeared only those left wrotten on the book and weren’t blotted out are saved is the idea only those who ….

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.( the word of life )

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( in the book of life )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( not in the book of life )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s how I see it just an old man’s opinion but the life in the Bible is to believe the gospel and the death in the Bible is to reject the gospel

that’s what all the imagery is usually about the gospel
You spend an an awful lot of words to say very little. As I said, I refuted the conflation right within the larger context of the EX 32 passage. I didn't have to traverse the whole bible to easily refute the NR error. The error is refuted right within the context of the passage. Read my 1910.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,059
415
83
It's the LORD talking in these verses. Jesus is the LORD.

As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die

According to this verse ^ God did die for them while knowing they would choose to worship the Beast.

And even though they were never written in the Book of Life, by them worshiping the Beast (sinning against God) fulfills this verse 33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.
That's nice. It still doesn't say anything about for whom he died. You're reading that presupposition into the text. That's called eisegesis, by the way, which stands in contrast to exegesis.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
715
113
That's nice. It still doesn't say anything about for whom he died. You're reading that presupposition into the text. That's called eisegesis, by the way, which stands in contrast to exegesis.
The LORD is telling the wicked to turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die

So He wants them to live. So He definitely died for them.