Are you pre-Trib, mid-Trib, or post-Trib?
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I don't think he will be the false prophet.. He is one of the people preparing the way of the false prophet but not the actual false prophet.. I believe the false prophet will be a religious figure causing people to worship the beast who will put himself forward as God on earth.. This guy is an atheist who does not believe in God.. And as such he represents a small minority on a world wide scale.. Unless he converts and becomes religious i cannot see him being the false prophet..
So you are with the U-Turn crowd
Problem with that is the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place in Heaven
So if the rapture happens right when Jesus returns and we go up to meet Him in the air and immediately make a U-turn and come right back... the the marriage supper of the Lamb is then eliminated.
A much better candidate would the the catholics pope.
Their pope guy has far more influence among the masses and once the anti-christ arrives all their pope guy has to do is publicly say this one world leader was sent to the world by god and instantly hundreds of millions of people will buy in to it.
There's going to be lots of people advocating for the one world leader once he is on the scene so lots of high profile, well know people will be saying the one world leader is THE man of the hour and we should all follow him
#10 is wrong.
It says the rapture must precede the advent of the anti-christ which is not when 2 Thessalonians tells us.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
*The phrase ”Gathering together”
Strongs 1997 = from 1996; a complete collection; especially a Christian meeting (for worship): -- assembling (gathering) together.
Strongs 1996 = from 1909 and 4863; to collect upon the same place: KJV -- gather (together).
*The phrase ”Falling Away”
Strongs 646 = feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"): KJV -- falling away, forsake.
Strongs 647 = neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of 868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce: KJV -- (writing of) divorcement.
Strongs 868 = from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: KJV -- depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
*Same word is translated “forsake” in Acts 21:21 - so this is what the word means: many will forsake the Lord (speaking of those that were Christians but fall away)
Definitions point to the rapture not happening until many who claim to be Christians fall away from the faith, and the anti-christ is revealed
This would mean the traditional pre-trib rapture view could not be correct
where Christians are taken out before the anti-christ is revealed, but instead Christians will be here leading up to the start of the anti-christ coming to power
Some claim the word translated “falling away” really means rapture… if that were true, then 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 would say the rapture won't happen until the rapture happens and the anti-christ be revealed which it does NOT say.
It says the rapture must precede the advent of the anti-christ which is not when 2 Thessalonians tells us.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
*The phrase ”Gathering together”
Strongs 1997 = from 1996; a complete collection; especially a Christian meeting (for worship): -- assembling (gathering) together.
Strongs 1996 = from 1909 and 4863; to collect upon the same place: KJV -- gather (together).
*The phrase ”Falling Away”
Strongs 646 = feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"): KJV -- falling away, forsake.
Strongs 647 = neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of 868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce: KJV -- (writing of) divorcement.
Strongs 868 = from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: KJV -- depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
*Same word is translated “forsake” in Acts 21:21 - so this is what the word means: many will forsake the Lord (speaking of those that were Christians but fall away)
Definitions point to the rapture not happening until many who claim to be Christians fall away from the faith, and the anti-christ is revealed
This would mean the traditional pre-trib rapture view could not be correct
where Christians are taken out before the anti-christ is revealed, but instead Christians will be here leading up to the start of the anti-christ coming to power
Some claim the word translated “falling away” really means rapture… if that were true, then 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 would say the rapture won't happen until the rapture happens and the anti-christ be revealed which it does NOT say.
According to the Bible we escape Wrath. So naturally the Rapture would happen before Wrath. Wrath really does not happen to the second half of the 7 year Tribulation. The real turning point is the arrival of the Beast who defeats the 2 Witnesses and makes war on the Saints. The Mark of the Beast/Beheading doesn't take place until after the Beast is revealed, which is after mid-point. My belief is we're gone before Wrath.
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We're going to see that the anti-christ will come to power thru promises of peace and appearing to be this great humanitarian and the first part of his reign is mostly peaceful, even more peaceful in the world than it is right now.
All forms of media in the world will be supporting this guy making it look like he is the savior of the world making it where only the ignorant and unlearned don't enthusiastically support him. Peer pressure will be very thick convincing and pushing people to get on board and support this guy.
This is the massive deception that will cause so many to follow him and many Christians will believe he is sent from the Lord because he brings forth peace (a short lived false peace) and seemingly has answers to all the world's problems. Many of the well known churches and preachers will all be on board singing this guy's praises on their TV shows. Joel Osteen will probably be co-writing a book with this guy!
According to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, the rapture will happen sometime after the falling away (that's been in progress for decades) and the anti-christ is revealed to the world and everyone knows about him.
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I know how, Hope. There's a verse in one of John's epistles, I think it is, that says — no, wait, here it is in 2 Thess 2: Apparently some people were teaching that the day of the Lord had already happened, and Paul is saying here that "it will not come unless the apostasy come first, and the man of lawlessness be revealed....And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. Then that lawless one will be revealed..."
When I was a teenager I, like most pretribbers here I expect, read The Late, Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey, who teaches pretrib. I bought into that teaching at the time, until I started actually reading the Bible seriously for myself. Recently I went back to Lindsey to understand how he arrived at this conclusion, and it's pretty explicit: He reasons that it must be the Holy Spirit who is holding back the antichrist, as Paul says in Thessalonians, and therefore that the Holy Spirit must be withdrawn in order for the antichrist to take over. That's simple and even obvious, and everything else follows from that belief.
(I don't mean Lindsey invented this doctrine—I'm sure it's been around a while. But Lindsey was very clear in expounding it.)
When I started reading the Bible for myself—a lot, not just here and there—I saw that the reasoning must be wrong, because all references to the rapture (and there are a lot of them) link it to the return of Christ in the end. Even the passage in Thessalonians mentioned above does the same thing, starting out "Now we ask you, brothers, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." The part in bold is the point here; the one and the other are linked. To be even more explicit, look in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, both of which describe the "great tribulation" and then say "immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."
Everywhere I see the rapture described, the same thing is going on; it's associated with the return of Christ. So I'm post-trib.
And anyway, as the wife of a church buddy remarked some years ago, when have Christians ever not been in the thick of things?
When I was a teenager I, like most pretribbers here I expect, read The Late, Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey, who teaches pretrib. I bought into that teaching at the time, until I started actually reading the Bible seriously for myself. Recently I went back to Lindsey to understand how he arrived at this conclusion, and it's pretty explicit: He reasons that it must be the Holy Spirit who is holding back the antichrist, as Paul says in Thessalonians, and therefore that the Holy Spirit must be withdrawn in order for the antichrist to take over. That's simple and even obvious, and everything else follows from that belief.
(I don't mean Lindsey invented this doctrine—I'm sure it's been around a while. But Lindsey was very clear in expounding it.)
When I started reading the Bible for myself—a lot, not just here and there—I saw that the reasoning must be wrong, because all references to the rapture (and there are a lot of them) link it to the return of Christ in the end. Even the passage in Thessalonians mentioned above does the same thing, starting out "Now we ask you, brothers, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." The part in bold is the point here; the one and the other are linked. To be even more explicit, look in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, both of which describe the "great tribulation" and then say "immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."
Everywhere I see the rapture described, the same thing is going on; it's associated with the return of Christ. So I'm post-trib.
And anyway, as the wife of a church buddy remarked some years ago, when have Christians ever not been in the thick of things?
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So hope for what’s not in scripture or should we let what’s actually there Crete our hope so it’s true ?
i wonder why Jesus specifically said his disciples would go through the great tribulation he told them about ? And that he would return after it ended to gather his elect ?
If I hope against that will it not happen that way ? What if I heard it then believed it and let that be my hope ?you know the promises of the Lord ? Wouldn’t that be a better Hope according to his words that he said anyone who believes me will live forever ? That creates hope doesn’t it ?
What I eas saying is I don’t understand how Jesus explains that his disciples will go through the great tribulation and he’ll return to gather them after that happens
and then we start explaining how that’s not correct his disciples will never go through it they’ll be whisked away before what he said happens can be true and fuflilled
i don’t understand how Christian’s hear what Jesus said clearly and plainly and then go tell everyone the opposite is what I was saying it seems like Christian’s would go hear what Christ said about all the subjects we want to know about like when he will return and gather his elect
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:24-27 KJV
truly I do think I know how people think the opposite I think that’s found here
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
2 Timothy 4:3-4
It’s because we reject what Jesus said and create other ideas about everything he taught people don’t like to hear “ repent or you also will perish “ which Jesus said so they make into “ your all saved already you need to do nothing “ which no one ever said
like that elusive single pre tribulation rapture scripture no one ever quite gets around to showing but instead they just explain it themselves how the pre trib rapture will happen
anytime we need to reject what the lord said about something we are wrong about it
i wonder why Jesus specifically said his disciples would go through the great tribulation he told them about ? And that he would return after it ended to gather his elect ?
If I hope against that will it not happen that way ? What if I heard it then believed it and let that be my hope ?you know the promises of the Lord ? Wouldn’t that be a better Hope according to his words that he said anyone who believes me will live forever ? That creates hope doesn’t it ?
What I eas saying is I don’t understand how Jesus explains that his disciples will go through the great tribulation and he’ll return to gather them after that happens
and then we start explaining how that’s not correct his disciples will never go through it they’ll be whisked away before what he said happens can be true and fuflilled
i don’t understand how Christian’s hear what Jesus said clearly and plainly and then go tell everyone the opposite is what I was saying it seems like Christian’s would go hear what Christ said about all the subjects we want to know about like when he will return and gather his elect
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:24-27 KJV
truly I do think I know how people think the opposite I think that’s found here
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
2 Timothy 4:3-4
It’s because we reject what Jesus said and create other ideas about everything he taught people don’t like to hear “ repent or you also will perish “ which Jesus said so they make into “ your all saved already you need to do nothing “ which no one ever said
like that elusive single pre tribulation rapture scripture no one ever quite gets around to showing but instead they just explain it themselves how the pre trib rapture will happen
anytime we need to reject what the lord said about something we are wrong about it
Amen that’s the issue all together fallacy claiming to be truth it’s been the issue since Adam
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
2 Peter 2:1-2 KJV
“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
John 18:37 KJV
The truth about the great tribulation from the one who told us about it
“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ( because they are present during it )
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. ( Jesus is literally preparing them to go through it so when it comes they don’t lose faith in him )
after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Matthew 24:9-14, 20-25, 29-31 KJV
He’s not gonna be wrong about it the ones teaching co teary thinfs about it are wrong
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
2 Peter 2:1-2 KJV
“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
John 18:37 KJV
The truth about the great tribulation from the one who told us about it
“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ( because they are present during it )
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. ( Jesus is literally preparing them to go through it so when it comes they don’t lose faith in him )
after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Matthew 24:9-14, 20-25, 29-31 KJV
He’s not gonna be wrong about it the ones teaching co teary thinfs about it are wrong