Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
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That's what I am saying. We all heard the Gospel. And while hearing the Gospel, God began to change our hearts and led us to believe.
Sorry if I did not understand your thoughts. I thought you were implying that I had to believe before God could regenerate me, before He would soften my heart.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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Sorry if I did not understand your thoughts. I thought you were implying that I had to believe before God could regenerate me, before He would soften my heart.
If we want to get right down to where the pedal meets the metal, I can't tie my own shoes without God giving me that ability when He created me. He's the only way I could ever be saved. Even if I saw other Christians and wanted what they had. There's no way I could make myself saved. Only God could do that for me.
 

MerSee

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Jan 13, 2024
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If we want to get right down to where the pedal meets the metal, I can't tie my own shoes without God giving me that ability when He created me. He's the only way I could ever be saved. Even if I saw other Christians and wanted what they had. There's no way I could make myself saved. Only God could do that for me.
God won't save you, against your will, if you choose not to believe Jesus Christ correctly, you had better hope you choose to believe Jesus Christ correctly.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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Just shows how you're incapable of understanding the truth.


Jesus said those who ENTER His DOOR will hear.

Luke and Paul explain how you Hear, Believe, the Holy Spirit comes upon you so you can enter the DOOR.


Too bad you cannot hear.
You cant hear the Gospel Spiritually without being born again, regenerated. Faith is fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22


Jesus tells us who hears the words of God Jn 8:47 and some cant

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

And it has nothing to do with ethnicity, but a persons spiritual condition before regenerated, no matter ethnicity, all by nature are under sin and dead spiritually.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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It tells me what we should already know. We have free will.
Absolutely, we do! We finally agree on something! All moral beings (including God!) can freely make choices that are in accordance with their nature. Good natures (like good trees can only make good choices and bear good fruit. Likewise, sinful natures (like bad trees) can only make bad choices and bear bad fruit. I'm overjoyed that you finally understand this. (y)
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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that is not what FollowerofShiloh said.
It is a false narrative by those who think faith in salvation is in some way suggesting we saved ourselves. The ability to even believe comes from The Holy Spirit. It is at that moment we are able to answer the call. to be obedient to the call is not taking away from God, who saves us. Just because God knew one would be saved did not mean we did. AND EVEN that God FULLY KNOW WHO WILL BE SAVED DOESN'T EXCUSE those who claim to be saved to not fulfill the great commission.

FYI, God, who is all-powerful and all-knowing, placed the ministry of reconciliation in our hands. Therefore we preach the Gospel

Which Paul said he was not ashamed of because it is the POWER OF GOD TO SAVE. we have work to do. I am no saying work to be saved. The word of God says the believers, because they are Saved, do work.


Reconciliation
2 Corinthians 5

14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading


through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.



Please show me anywhere in this text that we are to worry about the election of God? When it is God who is. what did Paul say?

as though God were pleading through us:
Well said! (y) I became so convicted of this fact many years ago, through the exhortations by a Christian buddy of mine, that I cultivated the habit of "redeeming the time" whenever I went on my walks and now even more recently (since back troubles) on my shopping trips of leaving gospel tracts in public places. It's the very least I can do!
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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Absolutely, we do! We finally agree on something! All moral beings (including God!) can freely make choices that are in accordance with their nature. Good natures (like good trees can only make good choices and bear good fruit. Likewise, sinful natures (like bad trees) can only make bad choices and bear bad fruit. I'm overjoyed that you finally understand this. (y)
Yet before regeneration our will isnt free from the power of sin, we are servants of sin otherwise
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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But what about those who "hear" but don't believe? What made you different from them?
Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off...

My Grandfather was the first to leave his Jewish roots and believe in Jesus. My Dad followed and I followed and my children will follow.

Most who rejected and continue to reject generations later are under this promises/curses we read about. But if one would just finally believe, that curse would break and their children would believe. I've seen it. Led people who come from generations of rejecting God and now their own children follow God.
 

BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
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Texas
Something came into my mind and I would like to hear some feedback from others concerning your thoughts on this matter.

My question is – Could regeneration take place without producing a noticeable change in us until an appointed time? In other words, could God regenerate a person shortly after birth which will produce faith when he/she becomes 22 years old.

It seems to me that regeneration is placing a new heart inside of you. The heart is plowed and made ready to receive the seed. But, is it possible that the Spirit will not plant that seed until an appointed time by the Father.

As you can see by my face, I'm a deep thinker and would like to hear others thoughts on the subject!
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,268
548
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Something came into my mind and I would like to hear some feedback from others concerning your thoughts on this matter.

My question is – Could regeneration take place without producing a noticeable change in us until an appointed time? In other words, could God regenerate a person shortly after birth which will produce faith when he/she becomes 22 years old.

It seems to me that regeneration is placing a new heart inside of you. The heart is plowed and made ready to receive the seed. But, is it possible that the Spirit will not plant that seed until an appointed time by the Father.

As you can see by my face, I'm a deep thinker and would like to hear others thoughts on the subject!
Its possible, regeneration is at the disposal of the Sovereign Spirit Jn 3:8 and time is no factor, however that person will be overcome with the Truth and forsake lies eventually if theyre regenerated.
 

BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
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Texas
T
Its possible, regeneration is at the disposal of the Sovereign Spirit Jn 3:8 and time is no factor, however that person will be overcome with the Truth and forsake lies eventually if theyre regenerated.
That was sort of what I was thinking! God could prepare you heat, but wait until years later to apply faith in your heart. He may plan that you hear a certain message latter which will completely change your life forever.
Thanks for your input.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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Something came into my mind and I would like to hear some feedback from others concerning your thoughts on this matter.

My question is – Could regeneration take place without producing a noticeable change in us until an appointed time? In other words, could God regenerate a person shortly after birth which will produce faith when he/she becomes 22 years old.

It seems to me that regeneration is placing a new heart inside of you. The heart is plowed and made ready to receive the seed. But, is it possible that the Spirit will not plant that seed until an appointed time by the Father.

As you can see by my face, I'm a deep thinker and would like to hear others thoughts on the subject!
Why not from the mother's womb?
Scientist claim a developing fetus/child recognizes their mother once they're born from the sound of their mother's voice because they've heard it while in the womb. If that child can hear the mother reading the Gospel out loud, it is HEARING, which is the requirement for Faith to believe.
 
Mar 2, 2024
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Not sure I'll be answering your question—I may have misunderstood it—but I definitely believe the Holy Spirit can and does prepare people to be overcome (so to speak) by the Gospel in the years before they actually surrender to it. Maybe that isn't what you mean by "regeneration", but He was changing me before I was ready to acknowledge Christ, so it seems like it to me.

I sometimes picture His work on me like a game of pick-up sticks. There's this big black stick right in the middle of me that I'm deeply ashamed of and would like to be rid of. Meanwhile God seems to be less concerned about it than I am. How can that be? It's awful, and it certainly isn't according to His will. But in order to get at that one He has do deal with other and seemingly less important sticks first. In the end He'll get there; we have His promise that He's going to make us perfect.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Yet before regeneration our will isnt free from the power of sin, we are servants of sin otherwise
Yes, I understand what you're saying -- you know...Luther's "Bondage of the Will" and so on. I get that. Nevertheless there is a real sense in which our will is free in terms of external forces or coercion. Even the will of the unregenerate are free to act according to their inner, invisible sinful nature. In other words, no one can ever ultimately say that the "devil made me do it" (Gen 4:7). "Sin" in that passage is clearly being personified since it does "crouch" at anyone's door or desire anything. God is alluding to the devil, who not knowing who the woman's seed would be that would come one day and crush his head, reasoned that it could well be her godly firstborn son Able. So, he tempted Cain to murder Abel. The devil was the one who desired to master Cain, proving what Jesus said that the devil was a murderer from the beginning. Nonetheless, Cain was ultimately responsible for freely making that choice. He chose to not "master it".
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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@Rufus

Even the will of the unregenerate are free to act according to their inner, invisible sinful nature.
I understand that, and somewhat concur, since men are held accountable for their wickedness, yet at the same time, even that is under Gods Sovereign Control to fulfill His decree, for instance Acts 4:26-28

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.


In Vs 26 the words were gathered together συνήχθησαν is an aorist passive indicative, they were receiving the action or being acted upon. It was God sovereignly directing them and yet they were still culpable for their sinful impulses and decisions that were guided by their sinful natures.