Predestination is misunderstood...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
PaulThomson said:
I don't even know what Arminius taught.
Click to expand...
The teachings of Arminius were actually not too different from TULIP (in certain aspects). People generally (and erroneously believe) that those five articles of Remonstrance teach loss of salvation as a firm belief. But the actual wording is different:
...But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind."
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
Philippians is strictly about how God works within us once we're saved.
Click to expand...
The question remains then, when are we saved. Is it after we respond to the gospel message, by repenting of our sin and putting our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Arminian Churches teach. Or is it at the time God wrote our names in His book, as Calvinist Churches teach.
 
PaulThomson said:
I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. I simply read the bible with faith in the Holy Spirit and basic reading comprehension skills and without having preconceived ideas about what it should say.

If you are willing to explore what the Bible actually says, my questions stand. What are your answers?

PaulThomson said:
1. Your proof text does not even mention "chosen/elect." So how can it possibly show that "those God choose will come to the Lord Jesus"?

2. The elect God chose before the creation of the world was His Son. When does the Bible say a person becomes "in Him"?
Click to expand...
Romans 9:10-13 should confirm the Calvinist position. It clearly states that God hates some who haven't been born yet and likewise loves some who haven't been born.

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

There are around 100 other verses which confirm the same bible doctrine.

I don't see how you can sit on the fence when faced with the question of how one is saved. That question has divided the Church into two main camps. One (Arminianism man centered works based) teaches that we are saved by obeying the gospel by responding to it with repentance and faith.

The other (Calvinism teaches a God centered grace based salvation) not by works. We believe God choses us and Armenians believe they choose God. There's no valid position whereby we can reject both views, as there's no Bible doctrine to support such a position. You would need to show where the Bible verses which say that a man can be saved on his own terms.
 
PaulThomson said:
False dichotomy. Those are not the only two options. Another option is to read the Bible for yourself and just share with others what you see in a passage and listening to them as to what they truly see in it, and comparing perspectives to decide for yourself what the most persuasive message of the passage is so far, and to be open to learning more and perhaps changing opinions. I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. I don't even know what Arminius taught. I base my understanding of scripture on what the Bible says, not on what some mere man says.
Click to expand...
So you lean on your own understanding to interpret the Bible, while God has appointed Sheppard's to interpret the scriptures for us Sheep.

Why wouldn't you take advantage of the interpretations of highly educated theologians. Private Bible study's are not recommended by most Churches, it's best to study in a group with at least a few elders to guide us.

God doesn't give everyone the gift of discernment, to interpret the scriptures. He gives that gift to those He appoints to be Shepherds. Private interpretation is like taking the law into your own hands.

The Bible is packed with deep theology, it's not possible to understand it correctly if we read it like an ordinary book. It takes many years of diligent study to become a Shepherd, who is equipped to teach others.
 
Cameron143 said:
Total depravity simply means that as a result of the fall, every aspect of man was affected. That is, his heart, mind, and will were all corrupted from their original estate.
Click to expand...

You have argued a person cannot be persuaded of the Gospel without Divine intervention, so for you it means inability to hear the Gospel and respond, that has been your argument from what I have read.

I have no desire to hash Augustine and Thomas Aquinas and what are the consequences of the loss of fellowship in the Garden of Eden.

Please answer my question, it is a fair question based on your position that all are condemned unless God acts, do preborn babies and babies who die go to eternal condemnation?
 
HeIsHere said:
You have argued a person cannot be persuaded of the Gospel without Divine intervention, so for you it means inability to hear the Gospel and respond, that has been your argument from what I have read.

I have no desire to hash Augustine and Thomas Aquinas and what are the consequences of the loss of fellowship in the Garden of Eden.

Please answer my question, it is a fair question based on your position that all are condemned unless God acts, do preborn babies and babies who die go to eternal condemnation?
Click to expand...
to hear the gospel the eyes of the heart have to be opened 😊

Who opens them bro

PST I come from the land of thunder.

Can Ya hear the thunder

Ya better run an take cover 😋


 
  • Like
Reactions: Charlie_2024
HeIsHere said:
You have argued a person cannot be persuaded of the Gospel without Divine intervention, so for you it means inability to hear the Gospel and respond, that has been your argument from what I have read.

I have no desire to hash Augustine and Thomas Aquinas and what are the consequences of the loss of fellowship in the Garden of Eden.

Please answer my question, it is a fair question based on your position that all are condemned unless God acts, do preborn babies and babies who die go to eternal condemnation?
Click to expand...
Again you misstate my position, even after I went to some length to explain it. People can be persuaded of the truth of the gospel, recognize they are sinners, and even experience an earthly sorrow as a result of a convicting conscience. None of that will result in them being born again. That alone is the work of God. Giving hearing is but one aspect of the work of the Spirit in genuine salvation.
This is why I took the time to answer as I did with your last post. You aren't truly interested in understanding, you believe the answer to your question will allow you to dismiss my argument and give assent to yours. But you could do that without my answer. So something is sticking in your craw. Perhaps that's why you didn't care for the foundation I laid.
But as I like getting answers to my questions and will know your true intentions by your response, I'll answer your question...both what is actually asked and what you intended in the question. I have no way of knowing whether babies in the womb who die are saved or not. No one knows. I believe God can save anyone anywhere anytime. I personally believe John the Baptist was saved in the womb. But even children in the womb must be born from above to see the kingdom of God. There is no exception. You must be born again. And this requires the activity of God.
How this transpires I do not know. Does it happen for some? All? None? Don't know.
 
Genez said:
God had them walking in the Garden knowing full well what the outcome would be....

The problem some have is they fail to see that God was teaching angels, and using man as a means to get them to see reality.
Click to expand...
Where is this in the Bible, please? Chapter and verse...
 
Charlie_2024 said:
Romans 9:10-13 should confirm the Calvinist position. It clearly states that God hates some who haven't been born yet and likewise loves some who haven't been born.

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

There are around 100 other verses which confirm the same bible doctrine.

I don't see how you can sit on the fence when faced with the question of how one is saved. That question has divided the Church into two main camps. One (Arminianism man centered works based) teaches that we are saved by obeying the gospel by responding to it with repentance and faith.

The other (Calvinism teaches a God centered grace based salvation) not by works. We believe God choses us and Armenians believe they choose God. There's no valid position whereby we can reject both views, as there's no Bible doctrine to support such a position. You would need to show where the Bible verses which say that a man can be saved on his own terms.
Click to expand...
It’s always Jesus who saves us. IMG_5750.gif
 
Thunderrr-mental said:
Again that's your opinion, that was said in totally different light.
Click to expand...

Not at all, it was said the same way.

Adam sinned, God comes in like He doesn't know and asks questions.

Cain sins and God comes in like He doesn't know and asks questions.

If anything, it proves God is the SAME all of the time.
 
PaulThomson said:
That is a one possible translation of the Greek.

The greek says, "And will worship him all who dwell on the earth, everyone who has not been written (gegraptai: perfect passive indicative) the name of them in the book of life of the lamb, the one having been slain from the foundation of the world."

"Has not been written" is the negative of "has been written". "Has been written" could mean "was written into the book sometime in the past and is still in the book". "Not having been written" therefore means "was written into the book at some point on the past but is no longer in the book", or "was never written into the book and remains not written". I prefer the first option.

The name was written into the Lamb's book of life when they began to live, and was blotted out when they took the beasts mark in order to buy and sell.
Click to expand...
But the ones who will worship the Beast when the Beast appears is for the "future." That has not happened yet. Since it has not happened, we have what God said, 33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.
 
PaulThomson said:
I just read my bible and get my understanding of God from there, instead of reading Augustinian platonism into what was not a revelation given through Greeks like Plato.

As a path to truth, I recommend discussing actual biblical texts to see what they actually say, instead of swallowing the well-poisoning of other fallible men who want you not to look too closely at the Biblical texts?
Click to expand...
If God looked out and saw nothing before Him.
Then He decided to create a universe with planets and ultimately earth with life forms.
He knows what is going to happen before it ever happens.
The Bible said God sets everything into motion.
That means He begins it and knows its every move till the end and it's impossible for us to ever know what He did.

11 He hath made every thing beautiful in its time; also He hath set the world in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end.
 
Charlie_2024 said:
The question remains then, when are we saved. Is it after we respond to the gospel message, by repenting of our sin and putting our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Arminian Churches teach. Or is it at the time God wrote our names in His book, as Calvinist Churches teach.
Click to expand...
Regeneration begins while we are hearing the Gospel being preached.

44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.

1. We hear the Gospel
2. Holy Spirit falls on us
3. Regeneration begins

Paul wrote it this way

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

1. We hear the Gospel
2. We Believed
3. We were Sealed by the Holy Spirit
 
Thunderrr-mental said:
I'm not interested in trading insults with you, you don't want to acknowledge a suggestion.

You just want to insult, which you have done over and over again
Not acknowledged and insulted.

You know you feet wouldn't even touch the ground where I'm from, with your attitude.
Click to expand...


Not trading insults...

You come here with errors left and right, and demand to be accepted with respect.

You are just an attention seeking disruptor.

That's all you are doing....
 
PaulThomson said:
To think that "knowing the end from the beginning" must mean "knowing every detail of the end from the beginning" is not logical.
To think that God never knew something is illogical, is itself illogical.
Click to expand...


It was illogical? To tell Abraham who was a 99 years old, and Sarah who was almost 90, that they were going to have a child?
Abraham believed it.... by faith.

FAITH... bridges the gap between God and man.
Can God be trusted when He is not understood?
Faith says, 'yes' if one senses the character of God.

God will remain illogical and incomprehensible to those who only see God as some super human being.
Illogical to those who mentally keep positioning themselves into His position, and then trying to picture how God does things.

God's abilities are illogical to the finite mind, because they are incomprehensible to our comparatively speck of dust mentality.

Be humble. That is step one.

The real question to be asked...

Can God who is beyond our comprehension be trusted?

He wants to cause us in time through gaining knowledge to understand Him by grace.
He does not simply demand that we do.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back