Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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The theology of John Calvin contends that before the foundation of the world, God elected certain ones (both angels and men) to be saved, and others to be lost.

There is no biblical basis for this. In the opening remarks of his first letter to the brethren at Thessalonica, Paul makes an interesting comment which helps put this topic into proper focus.

“Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father; knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election, how that our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; even as ye know what manner of men we showed ourselves toward you for your sake” (1 Thes. 1:1-5).

In verse four, the apostle reminds them of their “election.” The original term merely denotes one who has been selected. The nature of the selection must be determined by additional information.

In this instance, the context clarifies the matter. The election was effected through the proclamation of the gospel and these folks’ acceptance of the same.

Underline “election” (v. 4), and “gospel” (v. 5), and connect the two words with a line. Marginally note: Election is through acceptance of the gospel.

This is further corroborated by a statement in Paul’s second letter to these same Christians: “... he [God] called you through the gospel ...” (2 Thes. 2:14).

The Bible knows nothing of an arbitrary divine election separate from human responsibility.
Who wrote this? Are you Wayne Jackson?

https://christiancourier.com/articles/1-thessalonians-1-4-5-election-through-the-gospel
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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The theology of John Calvin contends that before the foundation of the world, God elected certain ones (both angels and men) to be saved, and others to be lost.

There is no biblical basis for this. In the opening remarks of his first letter to the brethren at Thessalonica, Paul makes an interesting comment which helps put this topic into proper focus.

“Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father; knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election, how that our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; even as ye know what manner of men we showed ourselves toward you for your sake” (1 Thes. 1:1-5).

In verse four, the apostle reminds them of their “election.” The original term merely denotes one who has been selected. The nature of the selection must be determined by additional information.

In this instance, the context clarifies the matter. The election was effected through the proclamation of the gospel and these folks’ acceptance of the same.

Underline “election” (v. 4), and “gospel” (v. 5), and connect the two words with a line. Marginally note: Election is through acceptance of the gospel.

This is further corroborated by a statement in Paul’s second letter to these same Christians: “... he [God] called you through the gospel ...” (2 Thes. 2:14).

The Bible knows nothing of an arbitrary divine election separate from human responsibility.
There it is, the Correct Order of Events to be Regenerated.
5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction

Paul CONFIRMS what he wrote in Romans
So it's Hearing first, just like Paul writes in Roman's 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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The Correct Order of Events to be Regenerated.
5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction

Paul CONFIRMS what he wrote in Romans
So it's Hearing first, just like Paul writes in Roman's 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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No it's not. Taking one verse and not employing the entire passage corrupts the intended meaning. Jesus clearly goes on to say that they would be converted if they had such hearing. What do you understand conversion to be?

This is the bad hermeneutics of Calvinism, taking the temporal and giving it an universal application.

Truly the most tragic view of God.
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
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Santa Fe NM
The OP states: Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

Does anyone actually think that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, who created the world, was only partially successful??

God died for all people. Those who accept his sacrifice in lieu of theirs are saved and have eternal life. Those who do not accept His sacrifice for themselves are eternally doomed.

End of story!
 
Dec 18, 2023
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I agree that it is God who gives understanding and perception. I'm just not married to any particular wording.
well it's an important question,

We hear the words,.only the elect are saved.

Obviously there's more one context to this.

But we see that the eyes of heart need to be opened.

In one instance of the heart,.the heart experiences joy ( a fruit) from the seed which is light, before the seed was removed.

Do we conclude the eyes of the heart where not opened in that instance,

Should we also conclude such person was not elected either 🤔
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Were you able to perform miracles without the Holy Spirit ever?
NO!
So this is specific only to the Disciples.
It's not. Romans 10:17 says otherwise. Nothing about miracles in the passage other than the miracle of conversion.
You have taken an unrelated verse and made it your proof.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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This is the bad hermeneutics of Calvinism, taking the temporal and giving it an universal application.

Truly the most tragic view of God.
Why do people cast dispersions so. I'm not quoting Calvin, but scripture.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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It's not. Romans 10:17 says otherwise. Nothing about miracles in the passage other than the miracle of conversion.
You have taken an unrelated verse and made it your proof.
Romans 10 is about the GOSPEL not about Parables.

Changing the Goal Line huh?

We no longer hear Parables. Those were only for the Disciples to understand when they were spoken.

Paul said Gospel of Christ is what brings Faith.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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well it's an important question,

We hear the words,.only the elect are saved.

Obviously there's more one context to this.

But we see that the eyes of heart need to be opened.

In one instance of the heart,.the heart experiences joy ( a fruit) from the seed which is light, before the seed was removed.

Do we conclude the eyes of the heart where not opened in that instance,

Should we also conclude such person was not elected either 🤔
Eyes of the heart simply means perception and understanding.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Romans 10 is about the GOSPEL not about Parables.

Changing the Goal Line huh?

We no longer hear Parables. Those were only for the Disciples to understand when they were spoken.

Paul said Gospel of Christ is what brings Faith.
I believe some people don't hear them. Go back to Isaiah and find the context. It's not the disciples.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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I believe some people don't hear them. Go back to Isaiah and find the context. It's not the disciples.
Isaiah is about the Prophecy. That was fulfilled by the Parables that only the Disciples could hear and understand by PERMISSION. The Disciples also filled another Prophecy Joel in Acts 2 Speaking in Tongues. by your reasoning you should be Speaking in Tongues.

Do you?
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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Why do people cast dispersions so. I'm not quoting Calvin, but scripture.
Calvin quoted scripture too, but in a sense you are correct we really should go back to Augustine, now Augustine had a brilliant mind but he was not objective, when he interpreted scripture it was based on his own view of himself and his life, he was basically a scoundrel until his "conversion."

So being one of the first to teach this "system" is Augustine, experience informs me this "system" is dispersed throughout many books, pulpits etc., even if it not the full Augustine system.

So unless you can tell me you have never heard a sermon from the pulpit or read a book in your life you, me and many others have been influenced to see scripture through this lens.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Romans 10 is about the GOSPEL not about Parables.

Changing the Goal Line huh?

We no longer hear Parables. Those were only for the Disciples to understand when they were spoken.

Paul said Gospel of Christ is what brings Faith.
The passage isn't dealing with parables themselves. The context is why He spoke in parables.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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The passage isn't dealing with parables themselves. The context is why He spoke in parables.
They were only spoken to fulfill prophecy. Nothing else. The Disciples ""needed"" permission to understand them. If you were there and not the disciples you would not have the same permission.
 

BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
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Paul CONFIRMS what he wrote in Romans
So it's Hearing first, just like Paul writes in Roman's 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Hearing is important, and it does come first! However, hearing (in and of itself) will not change your heart. It takes a working of the Spirit within the persons heart (in addition to hearing) to soften the heart so that it will receive what is heard. To think otherwise, would do away with the 3rd person of the trinity.