The Torah is Still Binding and We Must Obey It

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Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
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You are stubborn in your misunderstanding and misrepresentation of this issue.

What you keep missing is that the indwelling Holy Spirit guides the believer in right living such that he/she may remain in right standing with God. The Torah is not the standard of behaviour for the Christian.
The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so it is contradictory to claim to be led by the Spirit while refusing to submit to it.
 

Johann

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Apr 12, 2022
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You’re obviously talking about me. Well, from the obvious hangup of f this whole long thread, you have to wonder. I’m nobody and a below average Christian, but there are things that we should already be past, if we’re truly saved.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
J.
 

Soyeong

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Oct 11, 2023
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Because the law shows how we can never measure up, and we can never meet the fullness of the law without Jesus.
We can go through the actions thinking we will be saved by obeying the law, but it’s only dry actions. That’s equivalent to trying to act drunk when you’re not. When you’re filled with alcohol, it will produce actions even when you’re not trying to be drunk.
The same way with Jesus. When you’ve become saved and Jesus is living through you, He will enable you to obey His law, not just the letter (Torah) but the whole law, which involves the thoughts and intents of the heart (unwritten).
Why are we having to go over this? It’s clear the OP and the first poster are not saved at all and are in some weird kick about some Torah hangup that they probably saw a YouTube or TikTok on.
In Romans 10:5-8, it quotes Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey, so it was not given to show us that we can never measure up. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. It is contradictory to obey God's law apart from Jesus. In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been a matter of the heart and God has always disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so living in obedience to the Torah is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience it.
 

Burn1986

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Mar 4, 2024
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2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
J.
It’s important to understand that we are talking about trusting God when we’ve done everything we know to do and still need an answer. There is no “law” or ritual or intellectual schematic that would’ve saved the Israelites from Pharoah’s army at the Red Sea. They were completely walked in with only one way to go, i.e into the sea (nowhere). They had to simply trust God. The was the “whole” of their law. God initially gave the “law” to the unbelievers.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
869
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It’s important to understand that we are talking about trusting God when we’ve done everything we know to do and still need an answer. There is no “law” or ritual or intellectual schematic that would’ve saved the Israelites from Pharoah’s army at the Red Sea. They were completely walked in with only one way to go, i.e into the sea (nowhere). They had to simply trust God. The was the “whole” of their law. God initially gave the “law” to the unbelievers.
God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it is contradictory for someone to think that we should trust in God for salvation, but not in His instructions. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart by obeying His instructions in all of our ways and he will make our way straight, so that is what it means to have faith in God.
 

Burn1986

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Mar 4, 2024
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Great. We all won the argument. We figured it all out and what have we accomplished? Nothing.
 

Burn1986

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Mar 4, 2024
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God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it is contradictory for someone to think that we should trust in God for salvation, but not in His instructions. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart by obeying His instructions in all of our ways and he will make our way straight, so that is what it means to have faith in God.
You’re trying to nail it down intellectually. You don’t have to win the argument. Okay, you’re right. Now, moving on.
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
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Santa Fe NM
You are clearly misinterpreting (at best) or not understanding (at worst).

To whom was Matthew's gospel written? Clearly, it was written to the Jewish people to give them understanding of their Messiah. It was not written to Christians! When He warned against relaxing the least part of it or teaching others to relax the least part of it, that was said before the new covenant was instituted.
A Christian is by definition a follower of Christ. So is it your position that the way to follow Christ is by refusing to follow what he taught in Matthew? In Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus commissioned his disciples to make disciples of all nations, teaching everything that he taught them, so that doesn't leave room for followers of Christ to refuse to follow what he taught in Matthew. Jesus didn't establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33).


The Mosaic Law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), so it is the law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us, however, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, so it is the law where sin had dominion over us, and Romans 6:14 describes the law that we are not under as being the law where sin had dominion over us, so he was referring to the law of sin, not to the Law of Moses. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is, so we are still under the Mosaic Law, but are not under the law of sin. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, so that is what it means to be under grace.

Moreover, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to God and against sin. For example in Romans 6:16-23, we are slaves to the one whose we obey either of sin which leads to death or to obedience, which leads to righteousness, we have been set free from sin in order to become slaves of righteousness, we should no longer present ourselves as slave to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but should now present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God. So to reject being under God's law is to reject the content of God's gift of eternal life in Christ.


Again, Paul said that he wanted to do good, but spoke against the law of sin that was controlling him and causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do. In Romans 7:22-23, Paul delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, and Romans 7:6 says that we have been released from a law that held us captive, so he was referring to being released from the law of sin. We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around.


The Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so why does it make sense to you to think that we are denying Christ by obeying God's word? Would it make more sense. to think that the way to deny Christ is by refusing to obey God's word? Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so why does it make sense to you to think that the way to deny Christ is by following his example instead of by refusing to follow him?[/QUOTE]

Clearly, you do not understand the New Covenant. If people, including Christians, are still under the OT law, then Jesus Christ died for nothing!
 

jamessb

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Feb 10, 2024
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Santa Fe NM
Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees and he never criticized anyone for obeying it, but he did criticize them for not obeying it or for not obeying it correctly. For example, in Mark 7:6-9, Jesus said that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so he was not opposing their obedience to God's law, but rather he was calling them to have a higher level of obeisance in a manner that is in accordance with its weightier matters.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. So my motive is to spread the Gospel. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having first obeyed it, having the experience of living in obedience it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically content of his gift of saving us from not having that experience.


Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of our salvation from sin that we are experiencing in the present, which we have by living in obedience to God's law through faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience doing those works is the content of His gift of saving us from not having that experience.

People like to cite Romans 10:4 and 10:9-10, but they just as often like to ignore Romans 10:5-8 and the significance that Paul's point in those verses has on how we should understand the surrounding verses. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul reference Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey, in regard to saying that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead (Titus 2:14).
What about Romans 10:4??? "For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes."

I feel sorry for you! You have missed the basic truth of Christianity. Read this verse carefully and pay attention to exactly what it says...

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. Romans 7:4

Give it up Soyeong!!! You are wrong about the law and Christians.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
869
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43
Clearly, you do not understand the New Covenant. If people, including Christians, are still under the OT law, then Jesus Christ died for nothing!
In Jeremiah 31:33, it says that the New. Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts. In Titus 2:14, it does say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Torah, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to say that he died for nothing. Our salvation is from sin, which is the transgression of the Torah (Romans 3:20), so the position that Jesus did away with the Mosaic Law is the position that he did away with our salvation.
 

Burn1986

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Mar 4, 2024
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I predict this thread will go at least 20 pages.
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
738
122
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Santa Fe NM
A Christian is by definition a follower of Christ. So is it your position that the way to follow Christ is by refusing to follow what he taught in Matthew? In Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus commissioned his disciples to make disciples of all nations, teaching everything that he taught them, so that doesn't leave room for followers of Christ to refuse to follow what he taught in Matthew. Jesus didn't establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33).


The Mosaic Law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), so it is the law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us, however, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, so it is the law where sin had dominion over us, and Romans 6:14 describes the law that we are not under as being the law where sin had dominion over us, so he was referring to the law of sin, not to the Law of Moses. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is, so we are still under the Mosaic Law, but are not under the law of sin. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, so that is what it means to be under grace.

Moreover, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to God and against sin. For example in Romans 6:16-23, we are slaves to the one whose we obey either of sin which leads to death or to obedience, which leads to righteousness, we have been set free from sin in order to become slaves of righteousness, we should no longer present ourselves as slave to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but should now present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God. So to reject being under God's law is to reject the content of God's gift of eternal life in Christ.


Again, Paul said that he wanted to do good, but spoke against the law of sin that was controlling him and causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do. In Romans 7:22-23, Paul delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, and Romans 7:6 says that we have been released from a law that held us captive, so he was referring to being released from the law of sin. We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around.


The Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so why does it make sense to you to think that we are denying Christ by obeying God's word? Would it make more sense. to think that the way to deny Christ is by refusing to obey God's word? Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so why does it make sense to you to think that the way to deny Christ is by following his example instead of by refusing to follow him?
Clearly, you do not understand the New Covenant. If people, including Christians, are still under the OT law, then Jesus Christ died for nothing![/QUOTE]

I don't know why my name is attached to the above, as it was clearly written by Soyeong! (I wrote the last sentence only.)
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
738
122
43
Santa Fe NM
In Romans 10:5-8, it quotes Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey, so it was not given to show us that we can never measure up. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. It is contradictory to obey God's law apart from Jesus. In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been a matter of the heart and God has always disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so living in obedience to the Torah is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience it.
WRONG!!! Why can't you understand the basis of Christianity??? Why not just become a Jew and get it over with? Put yourself under the law and incur God's wrath. Let me know how it goes!
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
738
122
43
Santa Fe NM
God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it is contradictory for someone to think that we should trust in God for salvation, but not in His instructions. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart by obeying His instructions in all of our ways and he will make our way straight, so that is what it means to have faith in God.
Why don't you obey His instructions by accepting Christ's sacrifice which put an end to the OT law???
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
738
122
43
Santa Fe NM
In Jeremiah 31:33, it says that the New. Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts. In Titus 2:14, it does say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Torah, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to say that he died for nothing. Our salvation is from sin, which is the transgression of the Torah (Romans 3:20), so the position that Jesus did away with the Mosaic Law is the position that he did away with our salvation.
Why are you denying the salvation that is found only in Christ???