I agree 100% with the OP -- if and only if you are a Jew. If you're a Christian you are under the new covenant, not the old.
The Torah is Still Binding and We Must Obey It
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If you are going to quote Him, you should quote what he said and not stick words in His mouth and then pretend He said them when they are nowhere used in the NT.
Well you certainly are a child of your father who was a liar and murderer from the beginning since you did redefine the word obsolete. You have also denied what the Scripture says about the first covenant. I posted the very words for you and you deny them.
So are you admitting that Christians are not obligated to follow the Torah?
Wouldn't that be something! On the one hand they keep saying we are to walk as Jesus did and practice the religion He did, and on the other hand they sort of somewhat maybe acknowledge that it is impossible to do so. But they are not honest so I wouldn't expect an honest answer from them.
In Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the least part of it or teaching others to relax the least part of it, so you should not interpret fulfilling the law as relaxing any part of it. Rather, "to fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo). After Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, he then proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended.
In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matter of the Torah of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not saying that we should follow those principles instead of following the Torah. If God were to teach someone the principle of how to be a doer of righteousness, then He could give them a list of 100 scenarios where someone was being a doer of righteousness, from which they could abstract of principle of righteous from what all of those scenarios have in common that could guide them in how to be a doer of righteousness in accordance with those 100 scenarios even in situations that are not one of the scenarios that God listed. In other words, God does not need to exhaustively list how to be a doer of righteousness in every possible scenario in order to teach us how to be a doer of righteousness. Correctly understanding the principle of righteousness will always lead us to be doers of actions that were give to teach us that principle. In other words, correctly understanding the principles of the Torah will never lead us away form follow the laws that were given to teach us how to be doers of those principles.
In Titus 2:14, it doesn't say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Torah, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to believe in what Jesu did for us (Acts 21:20) while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to reject what he did for us.[/QUOTE]
That’s like the first six books of the Bible right?
You are being silly by demanding that we can only quote Jesus in the original languages. Jesus spoke Hebrew, so it is very likely that he was speaking Hebrew in Matthew 5:17-19, which which case he would have used the word "Torah'.
No, I was saying even if it was the case that Christians are not obligated to obey it, not stating that is is the case.
We should follow the Torah to the extent that we are able to obey it and we are not required to obey commands that can't currently be obeyed.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting form our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Furthermore, Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). Being a follower of Christ is not just for Jews, but for Gentiles too, and the way to be a follower of Christ is not about refusing to follow what he taught.
If people would obey the food laws they would not be obese. Makes me cringe to look at a preacher who is big enough to make 3 people and hear him preach on you should not do this or that. How about skip a few months worth of meals? Instead of preaching on fasting try to actually participate in it.
For some reason many people think that it makes perfect sense to interpret servants of God promoting rebellion against Him.
Do you know those with diabetes who no longer have it changed to a diet, from the doctors, that match the food laws in the Torah? If you have diabetes you should go on the food law diet.
So it's not just a law but designed by God to keep the body healthy.
So it's not just a law but designed by God to keep the body healthy.
We need to distinguish between the Torah (all five books) and the Law of Moses (contained within it) which is under the Old Covenant.
1. The Torah cannot be abolished since it is an integral part of the Bible. Indeed a very critical part of the Bible.
2. The Law of Moses was given specifically to Israel and contains 613 commandments.
3. The Law also contains the Ten Commandments, which remain effective for all humanity.
4. But the New Covenant replaces and ABOLISHES the Old Covenant, and if you disagree with that you are disagreeing with God and Christ.
5. The blood of Christ ratified the New Covenant, therefore there can be no going back to the Law of Moses.
6. Anyone who now clings to the Law of Moses nullifies the grace of God and the finished work of Christ.
7. The Ten Commandments have been carried over into the Law of Christ, which is the Law of Love (also called the Law of Liberty and the Royal Law).
8. But salvation is purely and solely by the grace of God and the finished work of Christ.
9. Those who refuse to believe the Gospel and obey the Gospel condemn themselves to eternal damnation.
You might want to drop the “duh” until you do some research. The Torah requires that you…
- get circumcised
- pay a tithe on your crops and farm animals
- attend the temple festivals three times a year in Jerusalem
- stone adulterers
- bring animals for slaughter to the temple in Jerusalem when you violate any of the laws
Oh… right… there is no temple. You’re hooped.
FAIL!
“Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law.”“ Galatians 3:10.
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
Jeremiah 31:31-32 KJV
It’s a new covenant not the old one again and Jesus wasn’t speaking according to what Moses had said it’s not according to the old covenant it’s a new one he promised to make when he came
The other is this
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
Galatians 3:10-12 KJV
“Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”
we don’t keep Moses law any other way than by keeping his words written on the law all of them not selective ones not the ones we agree with it’s a law written down ot doesn’t bend or omit a single word for any sinner it’s not meant to it’s meant to do this
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Romans 3:19-20 KJV
when you folks are looking at the law of Moses this is what it’s doing inside us let’s take a ten commandment “ thou shalt not covet “
“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment,
wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.”
Romans 7:7-11
by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
It’s to teach these kind of people what sin is and that they are all guilty of it too so they have a change to repent of it and believe the gospel and be saved
“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, ( thou shalt not kill ) for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, ( thou shalt not lie ) for perjured persons,( thou shalt not bear false witness ) and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
1 Timothy 1:9-10 KJV
We can’t belong to that group of people anymore the law saying “ don’t do this don’t do this don’t do this “ actually provokes the corrupted part of our flesh and edifies it towards what sin is it’s giving tbe understanding of sin not righteousness but sin
telling someone” this is evil , don’t do evil you must die if you do any evil “ doesn’t make them righteous it doesn’t mean they’ll be doing what’s right all it can do is identify thier sin when they acknolwedge they have broken the law too and then they’re here with every one else
“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”
James 2:10 KJV
We could actually follow all Moses said then break one aspect of the law once and it has proven that we are a lawbreaker and fallen short now are condemned by the law that says if you don’t continually keep all Moses has written in his book of the law ( the Torah ) you are cursed and shall surely die like the law says in its letters and words that remain the same forever
there isn’t one covenant there are two one was made through Moses with the children ofnisrael at sinia and then Added to by Moses it’s this word to theses people
“And Moses told the children of Israel according to all that the LORD commanded Moses.”
Numbers 29:40 KJV
Moses is the mediator it’s his word only his word became the law of Moses it’s forever the same what he wrote down before he died is the law of Moses for the children of isreal they broke that covenant like he said that they would before Moses died
“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.”
Deuteronomy 31:16 KJV
and as you see on Jeremiah 31 he’s saying very plainly and clearly “ I will make a new covenant with them not according to the covenant I made when I led them from Egypt , which was the covenant they broke “
It’s this brother this is how to grasp it
“The law and the prophets were until John:
since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
The gospel is our law the law of Moses is ancient Israel’s covenant law which they broke they don’t mix together each mediator spoke his word word for two different intentions one to condemn and upset sin to sinners the other to call them to repentance and teach them righteousness not give them knowledge of sin