Not By Works
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Well Grace it seems can be viewed as many things when a person reads one sentence which says by grace you have been saved.
I would imagine the heart that tries to save it's self would say I'm saved by Grace, and say and now I am saved, because obviously the heart that saves its self would let there head rule there heart, and Not mercy.
People beat them self's up i guess, especially those who want to carry on in sin,
As they would not be a part of the remnant, it's then obvious that a heart that has saved themselves would imagine they can assume grace must mean its not there fault who they are, and so they carry on in there ignorance.
They then dismiss that you must believe and be baptised to enter into the new covenant 😊
I would imagine the heart that tries to save it's self would say I'm saved by Grace, and say and now I am saved, because obviously the heart that saves its self would let there head rule there heart, and Not mercy.
People beat them self's up i guess, especially those who want to carry on in sin,
As they would not be a part of the remnant, it's then obvious that a heart that has saved themselves would imagine they can assume grace must mean its not there fault who they are, and so they carry on in there ignorance.
They then dismiss that you must believe and be baptised to enter into the new covenant 😊
ALL? Would you please explain this passage?...
Romans 11:25 LSB
For I do not want you, brothers, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
If God is not willing that any should perish, then why this hardening/blindness upon Israel. Why them and not other groups?
Romans 11:25 LSB
For I do not want you, brothers, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
If God is not willing that any should perish, then why this hardening/blindness upon Israel. Why them and not other groups?
Yes, this beaten-to-death [ 153,364 postings ] thread is
Definitely suffering!:
Should we not honor God, and start all over, here?:
end suffering, and:
Amen.
Definitely suffering!:
Pro 28:25 "He that is of a proud heart stirreth up strife..."
+Rom_13:13b "...in rioting and drunkenness, not in
chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying."
+1Co_3:3 "For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among
you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal,
and walk as men?"
+1Ti_6:4 "He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about
questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife,
railings, evil surmisings,"
+Should we not honor God, and start all over, here?:
Php_2:3a "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory;..."
May God Help us all by Grace, Peace, Mercy and Love, so that we mayend suffering, and:
""Let us walk honestly, as in the day..." (Romans 13:13a)
+"...in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better
than themselves." (Philippians 2:3b)
Amen.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
For I would not...ignorant of this mystery: Paul wants the Gentile believers to understand this important truth.
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: He warns against arrogance, implying some believers might think they are better than Israel because they have accepted Jesus. (So sad this could happen)
that blindness in part is happened to Israel: This doesn't mean literal blindness, but a spiritual resistance to recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. It's described as "partial" and "temporary."
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in: This refers to the spreading of Christianity among the Gentiles, which God allows to happen before a larger portion of Israel accepts Jesus.
The question of why God allowed a hardening or blindness to come upon Israel, especially in light of passages that express God's desire for none to perish, touches on complex theological themes concerning divine sovereignty, human responsibility, and the mystery of God's redemptive plan. Two key passages that often come up in this discussion are 2 Peter 3:9, which states, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance," and Romans 11:25, "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."
The hardening of Israel is a theme particularly explored in the book of Romans (chapters 9-11). Paul discusses how Israel's rejection of the Messiah led to the Gentiles' inclusion into God's salvation plan. However, this rejection is part of a larger, mysterious plan of God to bring salvation to the entire world - both Jews and Gentiles. The hardening is described as partial and temporary, with the ultimate goal being the salvation of all Israel (Romans 11:26).
This issue brings into focus the balance between divine sovereignty and human responsibility. Scripture affirms both God's sovereign will and control over all things and the genuine human responsibility to respond to God's revelation. The hardening of Israel is not presented as God forcing unbelief upon them but rather as a judicial act in response to their continued unbelief and rejection of Christ. It serves both as a consequence of their rejection and as a means by which God's salvation can reach the Gentiles.
The narrative of Scripture shows that God chose Israel to be the people through whom He would reveal Himself and bring the Messiah into the world. Their temporary hardening has a redemptive purpose for the world, as it opens the door for the Gentiles to come into the covenant relationship with God. This inclusion of the Gentiles, in turn, is intended to make Israel "jealous" and ultimately lead to their fullness coming into God's salvation (Romans 11:11-14).
The hardening of Israel, then, is part of God's mysterious and sovereign plan for redeeming the world. It demonstrates both the seriousness of rejecting God's revelation and the depth of God's mercy and patience, extending salvation beyond the boundaries of Israel to include all nations. God's ultimate desire is the restoration and salvation of all people, including Israel. This theme underscores the complexity of God's dealings with humanity, His sovereign plans that operate within the scope of human history, and His merciful character that seeks the redemption of all.
For I would not...ignorant of this mystery: Paul wants the Gentile believers to understand this important truth.
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: He warns against arrogance, implying some believers might think they are better than Israel because they have accepted Jesus. (So sad this could happen)
that blindness in part is happened to Israel: This doesn't mean literal blindness, but a spiritual resistance to recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. It's described as "partial" and "temporary."
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in: This refers to the spreading of Christianity among the Gentiles, which God allows to happen before a larger portion of Israel accepts Jesus.
The question of why God allowed a hardening or blindness to come upon Israel, especially in light of passages that express God's desire for none to perish, touches on complex theological themes concerning divine sovereignty, human responsibility, and the mystery of God's redemptive plan. Two key passages that often come up in this discussion are 2 Peter 3:9, which states, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance," and Romans 11:25, "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."
The hardening of Israel is a theme particularly explored in the book of Romans (chapters 9-11). Paul discusses how Israel's rejection of the Messiah led to the Gentiles' inclusion into God's salvation plan. However, this rejection is part of a larger, mysterious plan of God to bring salvation to the entire world - both Jews and Gentiles. The hardening is described as partial and temporary, with the ultimate goal being the salvation of all Israel (Romans 11:26).
This issue brings into focus the balance between divine sovereignty and human responsibility. Scripture affirms both God's sovereign will and control over all things and the genuine human responsibility to respond to God's revelation. The hardening of Israel is not presented as God forcing unbelief upon them but rather as a judicial act in response to their continued unbelief and rejection of Christ. It serves both as a consequence of their rejection and as a means by which God's salvation can reach the Gentiles.
The narrative of Scripture shows that God chose Israel to be the people through whom He would reveal Himself and bring the Messiah into the world. Their temporary hardening has a redemptive purpose for the world, as it opens the door for the Gentiles to come into the covenant relationship with God. This inclusion of the Gentiles, in turn, is intended to make Israel "jealous" and ultimately lead to their fullness coming into God's salvation (Romans 11:11-14).
The hardening of Israel, then, is part of God's mysterious and sovereign plan for redeeming the world. It demonstrates both the seriousness of rejecting God's revelation and the depth of God's mercy and patience, extending salvation beyond the boundaries of Israel to include all nations. God's ultimate desire is the restoration and salvation of all people, including Israel. This theme underscores the complexity of God's dealings with humanity, His sovereign plans that operate within the scope of human history, and His merciful character that seeks the redemption of all.
making up what ?
I have general rules according to scripture, just as I live by morals according to scripture.
But If wanted to I could choose to live by what temptation says, so could you.
But I ain't going to, are you ?
Nobody can say they don't know what temptation is.
God has made everyone aware of temptation, God has made the Jews aware of Jesus. They chose not to follow him.
God will not speak to the Jews until they welcome the lord,
The Jews will not get baptised in the name of the lord either,
So they will not be saved.
I have general rules according to scripture, just as I live by morals according to scripture.
But If wanted to I could choose to live by what temptation says, so could you.
But I ain't going to, are you ?
Nobody can say they don't know what temptation is.
God has made everyone aware of temptation, God has made the Jews aware of Jesus. They chose not to follow him.
God will not speak to the Jews until they welcome the lord,
The Jews will not get baptised in the name of the lord either,
So they will not be saved.
Titus 2:11-14
New International Version
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good..
This scripture clearly say all people are offered salvation by Gods grace.
But not all will be saved by Grace.
New International Version
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good..
This scripture clearly say all people are offered salvation by Gods grace.
But not all will be saved by Grace.
The statements presented reflect a misunderstanding of biblical teachings regarding salvation, the relationship between God and the Jewish people, and the nature of God's revelation and grace. It's important to approach such topics with a nuanced understanding of Scripture and the heart of God as revealed through Jesus Christ.
Firstly, the New Testament does teach that God desires all people to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4 states, "who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." This desire includes both Jews and Gentiles. The assertion that God will not speak to the Jews until they welcome the Lord overlooks the entire narrative of the Bible, which shows God's persistent outreach to the Jewish people, even when they turn away. In Romans 11, Paul discusses at length the mystery of Israel's partial hardening to make way for the Gentiles and emphasizes that this hardening is temporary. Verses 25-26 say, "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved." This passage indicates God's ongoing commitment to Israel and His plan for their ultimate salvation.
Secondly, the claim that Jews will not be saved because they do not get baptized in the name of the Lord is a simplification that does not account for the complexity of God's relationship with humanity. Salvation is indeed through Jesus Christ, as Acts 4:12 states: "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." However, the New Testament reveals a God who judges the heart and knows the sincerity of every individual's seeking (Romans 2:14-16). It is not our place to declare who will or will not be saved but to proclaim the gospel and trust God's justice and mercy.
Furthermore, the statements seem to imply a cessation of God's communication with the Jewish people, which contradicts the biblical portrayal of God's unchanging nature and faithfulness. Throughout Scripture, God demonstrates His willingness to reach out, guide, and save, regardless of ethnicity or background. James 4:8 encourages all to draw near to God with the promise that He will draw near to them, emphasizing God's openness to relationship with all who seek Him.
Firstly, the New Testament does teach that God desires all people to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4 states, "who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." This desire includes both Jews and Gentiles. The assertion that God will not speak to the Jews until they welcome the Lord overlooks the entire narrative of the Bible, which shows God's persistent outreach to the Jewish people, even when they turn away. In Romans 11, Paul discusses at length the mystery of Israel's partial hardening to make way for the Gentiles and emphasizes that this hardening is temporary. Verses 25-26 say, "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved." This passage indicates God's ongoing commitment to Israel and His plan for their ultimate salvation.
Secondly, the claim that Jews will not be saved because they do not get baptized in the name of the Lord is a simplification that does not account for the complexity of God's relationship with humanity. Salvation is indeed through Jesus Christ, as Acts 4:12 states: "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." However, the New Testament reveals a God who judges the heart and knows the sincerity of every individual's seeking (Romans 2:14-16). It is not our place to declare who will or will not be saved but to proclaim the gospel and trust God's justice and mercy.
Furthermore, the statements seem to imply a cessation of God's communication with the Jewish people, which contradicts the biblical portrayal of God's unchanging nature and faithfulness. Throughout Scripture, God demonstrates His willingness to reach out, guide, and save, regardless of ethnicity or background. James 4:8 encourages all to draw near to God with the promise that He will draw near to them, emphasizing God's openness to relationship with all who seek Him.
no I'm not rejecting. The lord has sent the Jews into exile
False Religion Worthless
7 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Stand at the gate of the Lord’s house and there proclaim this message:
“‘Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the Lord. 3 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. 4 Do not trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!” 5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors for ever and ever. 8 But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.
“‘Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury,[a] burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe”—safe to do all these detestable things? 11 Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the Lord.
12 “‘Go now to the place in Shiloh where I first made a dwelling for my Name, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of my people Israel. 13 While you were doing all these things, declares the Lord, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer. 14 Therefore, what I did to Shiloh I will now do to the house that bears my Name, the temple you trust in, the place I gave to you and your ancestors. 15 I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your fellow Israelites, the people of Ephraim.’
16 “So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to arouse my anger. 19 But am I the one they are provoking? declares the Lord. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame?
20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place—on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the crops of your land—and it will burn and not be quenched.
21 “‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! 22 For when I brought your ancestors out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, 23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in obedience to all I command you, that it may go well with you. 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. 25 From the time your ancestors left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. 26 But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their ancestors.’
27 “When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer. 28 Therefore say to them, ‘This is the nation that has not obeyed the Lord its God or responded to correction. Truth has perished; it has vanished from their lips.
29 “‘Cut off your hair and throw it away; take up a lament on the barren heights, for the Lord has rejected and abandoned this generation that is under his wrath.
The Valley of Slaughter
30 “‘The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the Lord. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. 31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. 32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. 33 Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 34 I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.
False Religion Worthless
7 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Stand at the gate of the Lord’s house and there proclaim this message:
“‘Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the Lord. 3 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. 4 Do not trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!” 5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors for ever and ever. 8 But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.
“‘Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury,[a] burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe”—safe to do all these detestable things? 11 Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the Lord.
12 “‘Go now to the place in Shiloh where I first made a dwelling for my Name, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of my people Israel. 13 While you were doing all these things, declares the Lord, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer. 14 Therefore, what I did to Shiloh I will now do to the house that bears my Name, the temple you trust in, the place I gave to you and your ancestors. 15 I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your fellow Israelites, the people of Ephraim.’
16 “So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to arouse my anger. 19 But am I the one they are provoking? declares the Lord. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame?
20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place—on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the crops of your land—and it will burn and not be quenched.
21 “‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! 22 For when I brought your ancestors out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, 23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in obedience to all I command you, that it may go well with you. 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. 25 From the time your ancestors left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. 26 But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their ancestors.’
27 “When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer. 28 Therefore say to them, ‘This is the nation that has not obeyed the Lord its God or responded to correction. Truth has perished; it has vanished from their lips.
29 “‘Cut off your hair and throw it away; take up a lament on the barren heights, for the Lord has rejected and abandoned this generation that is under his wrath.
The Valley of Slaughter
30 “‘The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the Lord. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. 31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. 32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. 33 Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 34 I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.
and again I'm not rejecting
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”
the lord will not listen to The Jews until they welcome him
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”
the lord will not listen to The Jews until they welcome him
I bet you don't even thow what qualifies a person to be called a Jew, do you.
Besides this your not listening to a word I say, and are now just posting random scripture, your obviously now just intent on just arguing.
There is no way I can post scripture to people who start to argue like you do, as they just start to reject scripture over and over again.
Besides this your not listening to a word I say, and are now just posting random scripture, your obviously now just intent on just arguing.
There is no way I can post scripture to people who start to argue like you do, as they just start to reject scripture over and over again.
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