Why Some Arminians and Calvinists Need to Calm Down

[Johann]

Agree, they are looking for converts , they are unable to be objective.

Actually-I see a tremendous amount of consistency from Reformed teachings-not so much from "flowery" Flowers.
Have no fear-no one is here to proselytize you.
J.

 

[Eli1]

Salvation is complete; it involves justification, sanctification, and glorification. By grace, through faith, God justifies believers in an instantaneous act. That is to say, Christ died for His people in order that the penalty for their sins might be paid and His righteousness might be counted to them. They are declared just before God when they believe. Once justified, Christ saves them from the power of their sins through the lifelong process of sanctification. In sanctification, Christians are made more and more like Jesus Christ. But a lifelong process never ends, and the final goal is never reached until death. At death, Christians are glorified; they are then made completely perfect for the first time.

This is wonderful and it’s very similar to what I believe, but in practice and real life what do you say when someone asks you: Where do unbelievers or other faiths or babies go when they don’t do these steps?

 

[Johann]

Not being facetious with you-study election for yourself as it stands written in Scriptures-

Salvation is complete; it involves justification, sanctification, and glorification. By grace, through faith, God justifies believers in an instantaneous act. That is to say, Christ died for His people in order that the penalty for their sins might be paid and His righteousness might be counted to them. They are declared just before God when they believe. Once justified, Christ saves them from the power of their sins through the lifelong process of sanctification. In sanctification, Christians are made more and more like Jesus Christ. But a lifelong process never ends, and the final goal is never reached until death. At death, Christians are glorified; they are then made completely perfect for the first time.

Or this regeneration-the Aorist point for the believer can happen simultaneously-all inclusive-is it really that much of an error, since this is all God's doing-and none of the ego eimi-that regeneration MIGHT precede pisteou since the natural inclination of man is to NOT come to the Light that he might be saved?

I was a sinner, less perfect than God. By conviction of the Holy Spirit I learned that my condition would incur the eternal condemnation of God if I did not submit to His grace. I acknowledged myself a sinner and threw myself on His mercy and grace, recognizing that He had brought salvation to earth through His Son Jesus Christ. After God the Father put God the Son to death on the cross, He could proclaim grace and pardon to all who would submit to Him. I came to the cross, believed His promise about His Son, and God declared me righteous even while I was ungodly and gave me authority to become His child. I ceased to be a child of wrath and became a child of God, justified from all things. Simultaneously, I was declared to be an heir of God, joint-heir with Jesus Christ. I received eternal life, and shall never perish. I was accepted in the Beloved; my body became the temple of the Holy Spirit; I was born of the Spirit into the family of God, baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. I have an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that fades not away, reserved in Heaven for me. Although I know myself to be a sinner, I am not concerned about the penalty for sin, since the Lord Jesus Christ bore the penalty and declared me righteous. The love of Christ becomes the constraining factor in my life, and I seek to glorify Him as Lord. I know Him as my Creator and so have peace of mind. I know Him as Savior and so have peace of conscience. In the measure that I enter into the second rest, I know Him as Lord and find the peace that passes all understanding.

Leave Calvin alone-he is dead-and still being "crucified by believers"

So what about Voddie and Johnny Mac? May God raise up more of these God fearing men.

Amen
J.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/351912460590917/

 

[PaulThomson]

When read in context the phrase "come to me" is spoken in the same breath as the word "faith". It is a synonym. Likewise the phrase "draws him" is used in parallel with the phrase "gives me" or "granted him".
Our Lord declares that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. (John 6:44) and "All that the Father gives me [draws to Me] will come to me." (John 6:37). In other words, the passage simply states that no one will trust in or have faith in Jesus unless God grants it (John 6:65), and ALL to whom God grants (or gives/draws to Jesus) will believe. Not some of them, but all of them. This universal positive and universal negative means that we are forced to conclude that all that God draws to Jesus infallibly come to faith in him.

When read in context the phrase "come to me" is spoken in the same breath as the word "faith". It is a synonym.

Not true. Come to me contextually is "come from across the lake to find Jesus in Capernaum."
John 6:24 So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and CAME to Capernaum, seeking Jesus." You can can come to Jesus, as the crowds and the pharisees did, without believing in Him.

Likewise the phrase "draws him" is used in parallel with the phrase "gives me" or "granted him". Our Lord declares that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. (John 6:44) and "All that the Father gives me [draws to Me] will come to me." (John 6:37). In other words, the passage simply states that no one will trust in or have faith in Jesus unless God grants it (John 6:65), and ALL to whom God grants (or gives/draws to Jesus) will believe.

Not true. The Father attracted people to Jesus by giving Jesus miracles to do and words to speak that brought people to him to check him out; some out of appreciation and some out of enmity. Jesus had no form or comeliness that anyone would be interested in Him had it not been for the work and words the Father did and spoke through Him. But not all those attracted to Jesus to either listen, or observe or dispute with Him, believed Him.
All that the Father gives me is neuter, not masculine. It says "Everything the Father gives me will come to me. Jesus is saying that whatever circumstances God brings Jesus will come Jesus way because they are apportioned to Him by the Father. So whether the Father brings Jesus situations of conflict or of friendship, situations of lack or of plenty, Jesus will submit to those trials. He also says that whoever comes to Him He will not cast out, We see that Jesus never threw people who came to him out, whether they came to challenge and accuse Him, or whether they sat humbly a his feet. Everyone Jesus who the Father attracted to Jesus, whether they believed or not, will be raised by Jesus on the last day. His implication here is that they will be held responsible by Jesus at the judgment for what they do with what they see and hear from Him.

[QUOTE="Johann, post: 5254335, member: 315277"This universal positive and universal negative means that we are forced to conclude that all that God draws to Jesus infallibly come to faith in him[/QUOTE]

Not true. "No one can come to Me unless it is granted by My Father" is referring to the fact that Jesus would have been unnoticed and uninteresting had the Father not made him a controversial figure, so that people would be drawn/attracted to Him. Judas would never have come to Jesus without the demonstrations of power, and yet Judas did not believe in Jesus. The Father's miracles through Jesus attracted Judas to join the other eleven disciples, and yet he did not believe. (6:64)

You have been bewitched into seeing and hearing in this passage the calvinist redefinition of words, instead of the normal meanings of those words.

 

[Magenta]

I was a sinner, less perfect than God. By conviction of the Holy Spirit I learned that my condition would incur the eternal condemnation of God if I did not submit to His grace. I acknowledged myself a sinner and threw myself on His mercy and grace, recognizing that He had brought salvation to earth through His Son Jesus Christ. After God the Father put God the Son to death on the cross, He could proclaim grace and pardon to all who would submit to Him. I came to the cross, believed His promise about His Son, and God declared me righteous even while I was ungodly and gave me authority to become His child. I ceased to be a child of wrath and became a child of God, justified from all things. Simultaneously, I was declared to be an heir of God, joint-heir with Jesus Christ. I received eternal life, and shall never perish. I was accepted in the Beloved; my body became the temple of the Holy Spirit; I was born of the Spirit into the family of God, baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. I have an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that fades not away, reserved in Heaven for me. Although I know myself to be a sinner, I am not concerned about the penalty for sin, since the Lord Jesus Christ bore the penalty and declared me righteous. The love of Christ becomes the constraining factor in my life, and I seek to glorify Him as Lord. I know Him as my Creator and so have peace of mind. I know Him as Savior and so have peace of conscience. In the measure that I enter into the second rest, I know Him as Lord and find the peace that passes all understanding.

Written by Donald Grey Barnhouse?

 

[PaulThomson]

Jesus Teaches that Regeneration Precedes Faith
by John Hendryx
----------------------------

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." (John 6:37)

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44)

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe
...And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:63, 65)

-----------------------

According to Scripture, all people are born dead in sin (Eph 2:1). This simply means that, as a result of the Fall, people are born without the Holy Spirit and therefore, (left to themselves and being spiritually dead) are hostile to Christ (Rom. 8:7) and unable to understand to spiritual things (1 Cor 1:21). It does not mean they can do (or think) nothing in their fallen state, but it means they can do nothing spiritual or redemptive ... that they will always think God's word is foolish (1 Cor 2:14) until the Holy Spirit, who comes from the outside, works grace in their hearts (Ezek 11:19-20). The natural man may be alive to carnal things, but he is dead to spiritual things. So to the question: can any person come to faith in Christ apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, both the Arminian and the Calvinist would definitively answer "no".

The Arminian asserts that this work of the Holy Spirit (this "prevenient grace" that temporarily gives the power of free choice) is ultimately resistible by the fallen sinner. Arminian's affirm that man, apart from grace, hates the light and will not come into the light. And because of this, the Spirit grants them a kind of post-regenerate - pre-conversion state where he is, for a time, lifted out of his moral depravity and given the opportunity to receive or reject the free offer of Christ in the gospel.

To be a just God, most Arminians reason, God must give all people an equal opportunity to choose whether to believe or not.

And this opportunity is granted, they claim, through prevenient grace. As most Arminians will admit, however, this "semi-regenerate" state is logically, rather than exegetically deduced. On the other hand, the Calvinist is convinced that the Bible teaches that regenerative grace itself opens our blind eyes, unplugs our deaf ears and gives us a new heart (Ezek 36:26, John 6:63) making God's call effectual, infallibly bringing the sinner to faith in Jesus Christ.

Arminian synergists assert that prevenient grace resolves the problem of human boasting since God initiates with grace. But in reality this sleight of hand does not resolve the problem at all and only begs the question.

For if God gives this prevenient grace to everybody, we must ask: why do some respond positively to Christ and not others?

What makes them to differ? Jesus Christ or something else? The problem of boasting is not removed, for if God gives grace to everybody and only some believe, then the heart that believes still thinks that it made the wiser decision by improving on grace while others did not.

The person affirming prevenient grace still must ultimately attribute his repenting and believing to his own wisdom, prudence, sound judgment, or good sense. So in the Arminian belief system, they are not willing to confront the obvious question of why some believe and not others? The only answer I have ever heard to this question in all my years debating this was "because some believed". But, this avoids the question, because I did not ask them what they did, but why they did it? And the "why" seems to be a question that Jesus goes out of his way to answer. (John 8:46-47 & John 10:26)

There are many texts which affirm beyond doubt that regeneration is indeed monergistic ... that the implanting of the new heart is what gives rise to understanding, love of Christ and faith. One of the most important discussions in the Bible about this is where Jesus was speaking to some fellow Jews who did not believe in him (John 6:64) . He said to them:

“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” ( 6:37) ”

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. (John 6:44)

"… no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." ( 6:65)

The reason I bring these three verses to your attention is because, they are spoken in the same context (John 6) and in this long discussion with Jesus and the Jews about faith these three verses are essentially speaking of the same issue. In fact they share more than one thing in common. They all use the phrase "come to me" and they each make a universal declaration ("no one" or "all").

When read in context the phrase "come to me" is spoken in the same breath as the word "faith". It is a synonym. Likewise the phrase "draws him" is used in parallel with the phrase "gives me" or "granted him".
Our Lord declares that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. (John 6:44) and "All that the Father gives me [draws to Me] will come to me." (John 6:37). In other words, the passage simply states that no one will trust in or have faith in Jesus unless God grants it (John 6:65), and ALL to whom God grants (or gives/draws to Jesus) will believe. Not some of them, but all of them. This universal positive and universal negative means that we are forced to conclude that all that God draws to Jesus infallibly come to faith in him.

Faith, Jesus is saying, is not a product of our unregenerate human natures; It is, rather, the product of new life that only He can give us through the quickening work of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit alone who, uniting us to Christ, gives life to our dead souls that we may believe. Jesus is affirming the same truth to Nicodemus in John 3, using the same type of language. In verse 6 Jesus tells him, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” And unless one is born of the Spirit he can neither see nor enter the kingdom of God. Jesus never gives Nicodemus an imperative (command) to be born again, but instead, tells him what must happen to him for eternal life to be a reality. Belief springs from a change of nature, for the old man considers the gospel foolish and thus cannot comprehend it (1 Cor 2:14).

This does away completely also with the Arminian argument where they point to John 10, where Jesus says "when I am lifted up I will draw all men to myself".

While we already demonstrated that "draw him" (v. 44) is parallel with "gives me" (v. 37) because it is spoken in the same context with multiple parallelisms so we concluded that ALL the Father gives (draws to) Christ come to him. But the Arminain must reach outside of this passage (out of context) to a completely different situation where Greeks approach Jesus.

There is no indication that Jesus is referring to the same issue. In fact, when read in context, Jesus is telling them that he is fulfilling the promise to Abraham that he would become a father of many nations. Not only Jews but gentiles will be included, so Jesus is establishing that He will draw (not all men without exception) but all men without distinction (Jews and Gentiles). He is announcing that his coming coincides with the expansion of God's kingdom to include Gentiles, in large measure.

Your answer?
J.

Of the 17 "heresies" that Augustine accused Pelagius of, there was only 1/2 of one doctrinal point that was actually a teaching of Pelagius. People who follow the historical Pelagius would believe almost nothing of those doctrines that Augustinians and Calvinists falsely accuse them of believing. So most people Calvinists call Pelagians are neither following Pelagius, nor are they following the fictitious caricature of Pelagius invented by Augustine. And most people whoi call themselves Calvinists do not agree with all Calvin's doctrine, so they are not really Calvinists either.

 

[PaulThomson]

Belief doesn't "earn" you anything; but it will get you a gift that you do not deserve and did not and cannot earn. Salvation isn't compensation. If you don't do the believing, no one is going to do it for you.

Are you speaking as someone who identifies as a calvinist?

 

[Johann]

This is wonderful and it’s very similar to what I believe, but in practice and real life what do you say when someone asks you: Where do unbelievers or other faiths or babies go when they don’t do these steps?

When individuals, including unbelievers or those of other faiths, do not believe in Jesus, the Christian perspective varies. According to Christian beliefs, salvation and eternal life are offered through Jesus's death and resurrection, which atones for all sin, making humanity right with God. Those who do not believe in Jesus are considered to be separated from God and face eternal consequences. However, the concept of salvation and belief in Jesus is not solely about acknowledging His existence but also about trusting Him as Savior and committing one's life to Him. Belief in Jesus involves understanding who He is, agreeing with the teachings about Him, and most importantly, trusting in Him personally for salvation

Joh 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

"I am the bread of life" (John 6:35, 41, 48, 51) - Jesus provides spiritual sustenance and eternal life.

"I am the light of the world" (John 8:12) - Jesus offers guidance and illumination in a dark world.

"I am the door of the sheep" (John 10:7, 9) - Jesus is the entry point to salvation and protection for believers.

"I am the good shepherd" (John 10:11, 14) - Jesus cares for His followers sacrificially and intimately.

"I am the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25) - Jesus promises eternal life and victory over death.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6) - Jesus is the exclusive path to God and ultimate truth.

Right @Eli1? So people of "other faiths" NOT believing in Messiah nor are interested in His Deity or the death and resurrection of our Lord-what do YOU think? is this a ekpeiradzo kind of question?

"I am the true vine" (John 15:1, 5) - Jesus symbolizes spiritual nourishment and connection to God for believers

And many more Scripture references I can give you-but I am not the person to ask "what about babies"

Shalom
J.

 

[Eli1]

Thank you for your response @Johann because this is where eastern theology differs from Protestants.
In this case I simply say “I don’t know” where everyone else goes, and this is simply because I don’t treat salvation as a technical document to achieve a reward but as a way of life here and now set by Jesus Christ.

 

[HeIsHere]

Leave Calvin alone-he is dead-and still being "crucified by believers"

A public figure who writes earns the examination he receives.

He could have chosen obscurity but he did not, it important his teachings are refuted where he was wrong, especially his ongoing circular reasoning which made no logical sense.

 

[PaulThomson]

Not being facetious with you-study election for yourself as it stands written in Scriptures-

Salvation is complete; it involves justification, sanctification, and glorification. By grace, through faith, God justifies believers in an instantaneous act. That is to say, Christ died for His people in order that the penalty for their sins might be paid and His righteousness might be counted to them. They are declared just before God when they believe. Once justified, Christ saves them from the power of their sins through the lifelong process of sanctification. In sanctification, Christians are made more and more like Jesus Christ. But a lifelong process never ends, and the final goal is never reached until death. At death, Christians are glorified; they are then made completely perfect for the first time.

Or this regeneration-the Aorist point for the believer can happen simultaneously-all inclusive-is it really that much of an error, since this is all God's doing-and none of the ego eimi-that regeneration MIGHT precede pisteou since the natural inclination of man is to NOT come to the Light that he might be saved?

I was a sinner, less perfect than God. By conviction of the Holy Spirit I learned that my condition would incur the eternal condemnation of God if I did not submit to His grace. I acknowledged myself a sinner and threw myself on His mercy and grace, recognizing that He had brought salvation to earth through His Son Jesus Christ. After God the Father put God the Son to death on the cross, He could proclaim grace and pardon to all who would submit to Him. I came to the cross, believed His promise about His Son, and God declared me righteous even while I was ungodly and gave me authority to become His child. I ceased to be a child of wrath and became a child of God, justified from all things. Simultaneously, I was declared to be an heir of God, joint-heir with Jesus Christ. I received eternal life, and shall never perish. I was accepted in the Beloved; my body became the temple of the Holy Spirit; I was born of the Spirit into the family of God, baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. I have an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that fades not away, reserved in Heaven for me. Although I know myself to be a sinner, I am not concerned about the penalty for sin, since the Lord Jesus Christ bore the penalty and declared me righteous. The love of Christ becomes the constraining factor in my life, and I seek to glorify Him as Lord. I know Him as my Creator and so have peace of mind. I know Him as Savior and so have peace of conscience. In the measure that I enter into the second rest, I know Him as Lord and find the peace that passes all understanding.

Leave Calvin alone-he is dead-and still being "crucified by believers"

So what about Voddie and Johnny Mac? May God raise up more of these God fearing men.

Amen
J.

Calvinists claim to follow Calvin. They can drop the name calvinist and invent a new name for themselves, or they can identify with Calvin and ascribe to themselves his doctrines.

Were you disagreeing that Calvin taught what I alleged?

I do read scripture form myself, and election is not a word used in scripture with a Calvinist meaning of "chosen by an eternal decree".

 

[Johann]

Of the 17 "heresies" that Augustine accused Pelagius of, there was only 1/2 of one doctrinal point that was actually a teaching of Pelagius. People who follow the historical Pelagius would believe almost nothing of those doctrines that Augustinians and Calvinists falsely accuse them of believing. So most people Calvinists call Pelagians are neither following Pelagius, nor are they following the fictitious caricature of Pelagius invented by Augustine. And most people whoi call themselves Calvinists do not agree with all Calvin's doctrine, so they are not really Calvinists either.

Faith, Jesus is saying, is not a product of our unregenerate human natures; It is, rather, the product of new life that only He can give us through the quickening work of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit alone who, uniting us to Christ, gives life to our dead souls that we may believe. Jesus is affirming the same truth to Nicodemus in John 3, using the same type of language. In verse 6 Jesus tells him, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” And unless one is born of the Spirit he can neither see nor enter the kingdom of God. Jesus never gives Nicodemus an imperative (command) to be born again, but instead, tells him what must happen to him for eternal life to be a reality. Belief springs from a change of nature, for the old man considers the gospel foolish and thus cannot comprehend it (1 Cor 2:14).

This does away completely also with the Arminian argument where they point to John 10, where Jesus says "when I am lifted up I will draw all men to myself".

I appreciate you going through my post and tick-"not so-not so"

1) "Jesus answered and said unto him," (apekrithe lesous kai eipen auto) "Jesus replied, and said to him, directly, personally.

2) "Verily, verily, I say unto thee," (amen, amen, lego soil "Very truly I tell you," personally and truthfully, as a person accountable to God (first), for the destiny of your own souls, Rom_2:1; Rom_14:11-12.

3) "Except a man be born again," (ean me tis gennethe anothen) "Except anyone (or unless anyone) is born from above," born anew, receives a new nature, a Divine nature, "Born of God," Joh_1:13. (This Divine birth certifies one as a "new creature," Gal_6:15; Eph_2:10, Jas_1:18; 1Jn_5:1.

4) "He cannot see the kingdom of God." (ou dunatai idein ten basileian tou theou) "He is not able to see the kingdom of God," he cannot, is not dynamic enough to perceive the Spiritual domain of God. Their minds are darkened with ignorance, Eph_4:18. You see, Nicodemus was talking about "learning," while Jesus spoke of Divine living and Divine wisdom, that must be prefixed by fear of God, and trust in Jesus Christ, Pro_1:7; Joh_8:24. Perceiving spiritual matters of depth is possible only following salvation or reception of a new Divine nature, 1Co_2:14; 2Co_4:3-4.

Ἀπεκρίθη Apekrithē|G611|V-AIP-3S|Answered Ἰησοῦς Iēsous|G2424|N-NMS|Jesus καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and εἶπεν eipen|G2036|V-AIA-3S|said αὐτῷ autō|G846|PPro-DM3S|to him, “Ἀμὴν Amēn|G281|Heb|Truly, ἀμὴν amēn|G281|Heb|truly λέγω legō|G3004|V-PIA-1S|I say σοι, soi|G4771|PPro-D2S|to you, ἐὰν ean|G1437|Conj|if μή mē|G3361|Adv|not τις tis|G5100|IPro-NMS|anyone γεννηθῇ gennēthē|G1080|V-ASP-3S|be born ἄνωθεν, anōthen|G509|Adv|from above, a οὐ ou|G3756|Adv|not δύναται dynatai|G1410|V-PIM/P-3S|he is able ἰδεῖν idein|G3708|V-ANA|to see τὴν tēn|G3588|Art-AFS|the βασιλείαν basileian|G932|N-AFS|kingdom τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|- Θεοῦ.” Theou|G2316|N-GMS|of God.”

The fact is-it stands written in Scriptures as the Aleithia-and we cannot twist and pervert the Scriptures to fit OUR narrative

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/2533343527201241/

Thank you for your response @Johann because this is where eastern theology differs from Protestants.
In this case I simply say “I don’t know” where everyone else goes, and this is simply because I don’t treat salvation as a technical document to achieve a reward but as a way of life here and now set by Jesus Christ.

Where Scripture is silent, we need to be silent brother.
Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

Calvinists claim to follow Calvin. They can drop the name calvinist and invent a new name for themselves, or they can identify with Calvin and ascribe to themselves his doctrines.

Were you disagreeing that Calvin taught what I alleged?

I do read scripture form myself, and election is not a word used in scripture with a Calvinist meaning of "chosen by an eternal decree".

Interesting-how do you define elect/election/choice/choose without a Calvinist meaning?

 

[PaulThomson]

Faith, Jesus is saying, is not a product of our unregenerate human natures; It is, rather, the product of new life that only He can give us through the quickening work of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit alone who, uniting us to Christ, gives life to our dead souls that we may believe.

Where is Jesus saying that "faith" is not a product of our unregenerate human natures, but a product of new life only He can give?

 

[Johann]

A public figure who writes earns the examination he receives.

He could have chosen obscurity but he did not, it important his teachings are refuted where he was wrong, especially his ongoing circular reasoning which made no logical sense.

Indicative that you have not read anything of Calvin-or Owen, or Edwards for that matter. Most don't read their Bibles, let alone study it-no offense.
J.

 

[PaulThomson]

Interesting-how do you define elect/election/choice/choose without a Calvinist meaning?

Election is choosing. The elect are chosen ones.

 

[HeIsHere]

Indicative that you have not read anything of Calvin-or Owen, or Edwards for that matter. Most don't read their Bibles, let alone study it-no offense.
J.

Studying John Calvin was more than enough to mess me up, thank God I was delivered from that nonsense of limited atonement, perseverance of the saints etc., etc.,

 

[SomeDisciple]

Are you speaking as someone who identifies as a calvinist?

Nope. I was just contrasting.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

A public figure who writes earns the examination he receives.

He could have chosen obscurity but he did not, it important his teachings are refuted where he was wrong, especially his ongoing circular reasoning which made no logical sense.

How on earth can people discuss Calvinism without discussing John Calvin 🤔

Calvinists are called Calvinists because of John Calvin.

Where now seeing his attitude, he's using excuses to condemn people with.

He's basically accusing people of speaking ill of dead.

I dont see how John Calvin is dead if all he ever talks about himself, is the view points of John Calvin do you..

If a dead person leaves word that causes division, how can you not speak about that person.

His attitude is plain to see buddy.

 

[PaulThomson]

3) "Except a man be born again," (ean me tis gennethe anothen) "Except anyone (or unless anyone) is born from above," born anew, receives a new nature, a Divine nature, "Born of God," Joh_1:13. (This Divine birth certifies one as a "new creature," Gal_6:15; Eph_2:10, Jas_1:18; 1Jn_5:1.

4) "He cannot see the kingdom of God." (ou dunatai idein ten basileian tou theou) "He is not able to see the kingdom of God," he cannot, is not dynamic enough to perceive the Spiritual domain of God. Their minds are darkened with ignorance, Eph_4:18. You see, Nicodemus was talking about "learning," while Jesus spoke of Divine living and Divine wisdom, that must be prefixed by fear of God, and trust in Jesus Christ, Pro_1:7; Joh_8:24. Perceiving spiritual matters of depth is possible only following salvation or reception of a new Divine nature, 1Co_2:14; 2Co_4:3-4.

Ἀπεκρίθη Apekrithē|G611|V-AIP-3S|Answered Ἰησοῦς Iēsous|G2424|N-NMS|Jesus καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and εἶπεν eipen|G2036|V-AIA-3S|said αὐτῷ autō|G846|PPro-DM3S|to him, “Ἀμὴν Amēn|G281|Heb|Truly, ἀμὴν amēn|G281|Heb|truly λέγω legō|G3004|V-PIA-1S|I say σοι, soi|G4771|PPro-D2S|to you, ἐὰν ean|G1437|Conj|if μή mē|G3361|Adv|not τις tis|G5100|IPro-NMS|anyone γεννηθῇ gennēthē|G1080|V-ASP-3S|be born ἄνωθεν, anōthen|G509|Adv|from above, a οὐ ou|G3756|Adv|not δύναται dynatai|G1410|V-PIM/P-3S|he is able ἰδεῖν idein|G3708|V-ANA|to see τὴν tēn|G3588|Art-AFS|the βασιλείαν basileian|G932|N-AFS|kingdom τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|- Θεοῦ.” Theou|G2316|N-GMS|of God.”

Why do you equate seeing with believing? Jesus said it is more blessed to believe without seeing. So why would believing have to include seeing? Why can't seeing be something that happens after believing, as Jesus seems to be indicating to Thomas?

So BELIEVE >> BE BORN AGAIN a.k.a. BE REGENERATED >> SEE THE KINGDOM