Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
- Thread starter MerSee
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Nope! "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world". It doesn't say "for the sins of the elect", it says "for the sins of the whole world".
1st John 2: 1-2 is not about the elect only; it is about the whole world.
I'm sure that you understand that there is a difference.
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." That's I John 2. Christ certainly died for the sins of the whole world.
So why would God kill His enemies, if their sins are not what condemn them? Here's my opinion: "This is the judgement, that the light came into the world, and they preferred the darkness to the light". I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that sinful actions, as such, cannot be the point if Christ died for them and paid the debt. It's simply that some people—most people—refuse to surrender to Christ, but continue to resist God. And in doing so, they get trapped in their resistance and hatred, and continue to be enemies of God despite His desire that they surrender to him.
While Christ's sacrifice is universally available, salvation requires a human response. Romans 10:9-10 explains, "because, if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." This passage emphasizes the importance of personal faith and confession. Although the debt for sin has been paid by Christ, individuals must choose to accept this gift through faith.
In essence, God offers salvation to all through Jesus' sacrifice, but it's up to each person to accept it through faith.
So grace plus a response?
You didn't answer my first questions:
Is God just?
Is it just to have someone pay for a debt that has already been paid?
Ok, so, your position is that God pays the faith debt that is required to please God, Himself, supposing He is the only One that possesses it and so is in a position to offer it as a gift. He has given us everything else needed for salvation except, but for a few, He has withheld the gift of faith.
Everything is His, yes, and He tells us all that we need do is ask, but... 
I keep trying to see it your way, but... I guess I haven't been given to faith to?
No. Faith isn't the debt. Sin is.Ok, so, your position is that God pays the faith debt that is required to please God, Himself, supposing He is the only One that possesses it and so is in a position to offer it as a gift. He has given us everything else needed for salvation except, but for a few, He has withheld the gift of faith.
I was asking the other poster if he was saying that grace was sufficient or grace plus our response? Our response is the product of the faith. It is always called for but will only come from those whom God has first granted hearing.
It's true that God's love and forgiveness are immense, but Romans 4:4 isn't talking about punishment for a debt. This verse is about how we receive salvation. The idea is that if someone relies solely on their own good works ("working") to earn God's favor, then the reward (salvation) becomes something they've earned, not a gift from God's grace.
The Bible emphasizes God's desire for all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). However, it also acknowledges that humans are accountable for their choices. Rejecting God's gift of forgiveness through Jesus (John 3:16) leaves us separated from him and facing the consequences of our sin (Romans 6:23). God doesn't delight in punishment, but there are natural consequences for our choices, both in this life and the next.
I think everyone exercises faith, i.e. everyone is given a measure to do with what they 'will.' And many, instead of gifting it back to Him from which all things come, misplace it in other less worthy idols.
Sure we all have beliefs and exercise faith in the natural estate. But the natural man is at enmity with God and does not seek God. This is why the Father must draw men to Christ.
I personally don't think most people understand what man actually is in the fallen estate, what the effects of original sin are on man, and his utter inability to operate in the spiritual realm.
I see. This is where our beliefs diverge. I think, in the natural estate, anyone is capable of blind faith, and practice this all the time. However, there is One time, and only one time, that this will always pay off, and that is when they give it to God. Give Him the natural, that's all we have after all, and He will do the supernatural.
- Wages of Sin: Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Sin has consequences, and this "death" is the debt we owe for our transgressions.
It doesnt have to say elect all the time for it to be the elect. 1 Jn 2:1-2 is limited to the elect whether you believe it or not.
1 Jn 2:1-2 is the elect, and only His Elect from all nations. And you entitled to your opinion, doesnt change the fact that 1 Jn 2:1-2 is only the elect.
Just throwing this out there for extra information.
In the Old Testament, "elect" (Hebrew: בָּחִיר, "bachir") often refers to the Israelites chosen by God to be his special people, entrusted with preserving his message and carrying out his purposes (Deuteronomy 7:6).
In the New Testament (Greek: ἐκλεκτός, "eklektos"), "elect" can refer to various groups:
- Believers in general: Passages like 1 Peter 1:1 and Colossians 3:12 address the "elect" as Christians, emphasizing their chosen status based on their faith in Christ.
- Leaders within the Church: 1 Timothy 5:17 uses "elect elders" to refer to those chosen for leadership roles.
The "elect" is referring to all who choose to accept God's offer of salvation through Jesus Christ. This view emphasizes human free will and responsibility in responding to God's grace.
The Bible doesn't provide a specific number of those who will be saved. Passages like John 3:16 ("whoever believes") and Romans 10:9 ("confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord") emphasize the universality of God's offer of salvation and the importance of individual faith.
The Elect are them God chose for Himself, and rejected the rest of mankind.
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Noone on Earth brings new revelation, that isn't already revealed through the Word of God (Jesus Christ), which is fullest revelation given to man. Through the moving and operation of the Holy Ghost, I Pray what we say here brings the truth of these Revelations, truth by truth, or precept upon precept, to the heart of the hearer. Lay what we say before the feet of Jesus (Word of God) and compare, the Bible is Always truth, so if they don't match, we need to reevaluate our stance. What we say or do here will have lasting impact upon the believer and sinner alike. We most certainly have freedom of speech, but any true christian will weigh what they say against the Word of God and if they don't agree God is not in error, and we need to pray for understanding. Those that have more meat of the Word can help those who are struggling, if done with humility, peace and love. I don't mind a peaceful debate, but when we start to argue amongst each other that is not the Spirit of God. God Bless and Peace to you all. (This signature is in general and not pointing fingers at anyone at anytime. God Bless.)
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Noone on Earth brings new revelation, that isn't already revealed through the Word of God (Jesus Christ), which is fullest revelation given to man. Through the moving and operation of the Holy Ghost, I Pray what we say here brings the truth of these Revelations, truth by truth, or precept upon precept, to the heart of the hearer. Lay what we say before the feet of Jesus (Word of God) and compare, the Bible is Always truth, so if they don't match, we need to reevaluate our stance. What we say or do here will have lasting impact upon the believer and sinner alike. We most certainly have freedom of speech, but any true christian will weigh what they say against the Word of God and if they don't agree God is not in error, and we need to pray for understanding. Those that have more meat of the Word can help those who are struggling, if done with humility, peace and love. I don't mind a peaceful debate, but when we start to argue amongst each other that is not the Spirit of God. God Bless and Peace to you all. (This signature is in general and not pointing fingers at anyone at anytime. God Bless.)
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