Predestination is misunderstood...

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Thunderrr-mental said:
To be saved by Grace must clearly be understood as one must have grace also 😊

Through scripture I showed where being bestowed, also means to put something in place, through the scripture of of kings, i showed

Well when grace is bestowed, it should be a person has grace. But all I'm seeing is people defiling people's character on order to win an argument.

I don't see how grace has been bestowed, with people behaving this way.

As through scripture I have shown grace means good will,

But where is the good will in constantly trying to provoke.
Surely if your saved by good will, then you should have it.
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The grace spoken of in Ephesians 2:8 is the grace of God. The grace engenders faith that brings about salvation in us. The evidence that grace has been applied is the new birth.

The grace an individual exercises is the result of Christ living in and through us.

There is also a natural grace that an individual can exercise that is learned and disciplined, and can appear much as the grace of God but lacks the inward motivation that is always present in divine grace.
 
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Cameron143 said:
The grace spoken of in Ephesians 2:8 is the grace of God. The grace engenders faith that brings about salvation in us. The evidence that grace has been applied is the new birth.

The grace an individual exercises is the result of Christ living in and through us.

There is also a natural grace that an individual can exercise that is learned and disciplined, and can appear much as the grace of God but lacks the inward motivation that is always present in divine grace.
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grace -- cf. Tit_2:11 Salvation is by the "grace" of God (cf. Eph_1:3-14). The character of God is revealed through His mercy (cf. Eph_2:4-6). Grace is best defined as the unmerited, undeserved love of God. It flows from God's nature through Christ and is irrespective of the worth or merit of the one loved. (BN)
"Grace" charis is feminine,
"Faith" pistis is feminine
"that" touto is neuter.

saved -- Salvation is the gift of God, it's grounds is God's grace. Salvation's source is not in man. This is a perfect passive periphrastic participle which is a repeat of Eph_2:5 (see note there). Its thrust is that "believers have been and continue to be" saved by God.
In the OT the term "save" spoke of "physical deliverance" (cf. ). In the NT this meaning has taken on a spiritual dimension. God delivers believers from the consequences of their sins and gives them eternal life. (Isa_59:2) He restores their fellowship with God again.

through faith -- Mankind must respond to God's offer of grace and forgiveness in Christ (cf. Joh_1:12; Joh_3:16-17; Joh_3:36; Joh_6:40; Joh_11:25-26; Rom_10:9-13), and this is done through a faith that "trusts and obeys." Salvation by faith means we trust in God's trustworthy promises and yeild oursleves to him as our Lord, which means then that we keep is commandments. (John 14;15; 1Jn_5:3; 2Jn_1:6)

and that -- This is the Greek demonstrative pronoun (touto), which is neuter in gender. The closest nouns, "grace" and "faith," are both feminine in gender. Therefore, this must refer to the whole process of salvation as completed in Christ. (Utley)
“That” refers to the entire previous statement of salvation. FSB

not of yourselves -- This is the first of three phrases which clearly show that salvation is not based on human performance: (1) "not of yourselves" Eph_2:8; (2) "gift of God" Eph_2:8; and (3) "not as a result of works (either OT works or one's own merit) " Eph_2:9.

Shalom-and I concur-"Charis" has left the room-a long while back.
J.
 
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Cameron143 said:
The grace spoken of in Ephesians 2:8 is the grace of God. The grace engenders faith that brings about salvation in us. The evidence that grace has been applied is the new birth.

The grace an individual exercises is the result of Christ living in and through us.

There is also a natural grace that an individual can exercise that is learned and disciplined, and can appear much as the grace of God but lacks the inward motivation that is always present in divine grace.
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I imagine your talking about the spirit disciplining the flesh 😊

The grace that is talked about in Ephesians 2:8 would also have to be bestowed into the heart, would you agree
 
Thunderrr-mental said:
I imagine your talking about the spirit disciplining the flesh 😊

The grace that is talked about in Ephesians 2:8 would also have to be bestowed into the heart, would you agree
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Ever thought there's a reason why members don't want to interact with you?
J.
 
Thunderrr-mental said:
I imagine your talking about the spirit disciplining the flesh 😊

The grace that is talked about in Ephesians 2:8 would also have to be bestowed into the heart, would you agree
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Imagine a beautiful garden flourishing with vibrant flowers. The sun's rays nourish the plants, allowing them to bloom in all their glory. The sun doesn't demand anything in return for its light; it simply shines. In the same way, God's grace is the sunshine that nourishes our spiritual lives. It's a gift, freely given out of His love, not a reward for our efforts.

When we receive God's grace, it's like opening ourselves up to the sunshine. We don't have to do anything special to deserve it; it's simply there for us. This grace empowers us to live differently, to bear the "fruit of the Spirit" (Galatians 5:22-23) like love, joy, and peace. These good works then become a natural overflow of our transformed hearts, not a way to earn God's favor that was already freely given.

Receiving God's grace involves acknowledging our imperfections and accepting His love despite them. It's like opening our hands to receive that unexpected treasure.

Our response to God's grace is where good works come in. When we experience God's love, it naturally inspires us to live a life that reflects His goodness. We want to share His love with others and live a life that pleases Him. These good works are a result of, not a requirement for, receiving God's grace. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

The notion that grace could be considered a work misunderstands the biblical teaching on the relationship between faith, grace, and works. James 2:17-26 discusses faith and works, emphasizing that genuine faith produces good works as its fruit, not as its root. The works mentioned in James are the evidence of a faith that is alive, itself a response to the grace we have received, not a means to obtain grace. Grace inspires and enables us to live out our faith through actions that reflect God's love and righteousness, but these actions are not the basis of our salvation—they are the response to the salvation already granted to us by grace.
 
Thunderrr-mental said:
absolute nonsense
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I am grateful to be a fool for Christ-


2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
Thunderrr-mental said:
I imagine your talking about the spirit disciplining the flesh 😊

The grace that is talked about in Ephesians 2:8 would also have to be bestowed into the heart, would you agree
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I believe that the whole of a man is affected in salvation. Acts 2:37 says they heard...the mind, were pricked...the heart, and said...the will.
The idea of total depravity isn't that an individual is as bad as one can be, but that every aspect of man was affected.
I also believe that man in his fallen estate can perform outwardly a human expression of divine qualities, and sometimes to a very high degree through application and discipline. What will continue to lack, however, is the inward divine motivation and power. I believe so much of what passes today as obedience today is nothing more than self discipline, lacking spirituality and the power of God.
 
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Cameron143 said:
I believe that the whole of a man is affected in salvation. Acts 2:37 says they heard...the mind, were pricked...the heart, and said...the will.
The idea of total depravity isn't that an individual is as bad as one can be, but that every aspect of man was affected.
I also believe that man in his fallen estate can perform outwardly a human expression of divine qualities, and sometimes to a very high degree through application and discipline. What will continue to lack, however, is the inward divine motivation and power. I believe so much of what passes today as obedience today is nothing more than self discipline, lacking spirituality and the power of God.
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Reminds me of the five wise, and five foolish virgins.
J.
 
Johann said:
Read Pilgrims Progress.
J.
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A pilgrim is a traveler with a mission. ( generally a religious mission, of God's calling.

And don't try to lecture me about my character, and then give me advice.

I get along with people in the real world, and none of my friends are cowards Like you. 😊
 
Cameron143 said:
I believe that the whole of a man is affected in salvation. Acts 2:37 says they heard...the mind, were pricked...the heart, and said...the will.
The idea of total depravity isn't that an individual is as bad as one can be, but that every aspect of man was affected.
I also believe that man in his fallen estate can perform outwardly a human expression of divine qualities, and sometimes to a very high degree through application and discipline. What will continue to lack, however, is the inward divine motivation and power. I believe so much of what passes today as obedience today is nothing more than self discipline, lacking spirituality and the power of God.
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The spirit is bestowed in the heart friend. There for grace is bestowed in the heart.

Only the remnant will be saved as written in Romans 9.

Which means many will not have grace (good will) bestowed in there heart, because they will reject God's mercy and calling. And show no good will
 
Thunderrr-mental said:
The spirit is bestowed in the heart friend. There for grace is bestowed in the heart.

Only the remnant will be saved as written in Romans 9.

Which means many will not have grace (good will) bestowed in there heart, because they will reject God's mercy and calling. And show no good will
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God's grace is evident to all. Rain is a blessing that allows all to eat. The sun shines on the just and the unjust.
The grace of God that brings salvation to man is also offered to all. But while the natural man may experience the benefits of God's grace through nature without an inward change, the reality of God's grace in salvation must be attended by an inward change to be received.
 
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Thunderrr-mental said:
To be saved by Grace must clearly be understood as one must have grace also 😊

Through scripture I showed where being bestowed, also means to put something in place, through the scripture of of kings, i showed
Click to expand...

Oh...so you cherry-pick scripture too, heh? :rolleyes:
 
Cameron143 said:
God's grace is evident to all. Rain is a blessing that allows all to eat. The sun shines on the just and the unjust.
The grace of God that brings salvation to man is also offered to all. But while the natural man may experience the benefits of God's grace through nature without an inward change, the reality of God's grace in salvation must be attended by an inward change to be received.
Click to expand...

Yes, Common Grace is bestowed upon all men. If it weren't none us would be able to live on this earth.
 
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Cameron143 said:
God's grace is evident to all. Rain is a blessing that allows all to eat. The sun shines on the just and the unjust.
The grace of God that brings salvation to man is also offered to all. But while the natural man may experience the benefits of God's grace through nature without an inward change, the reality of God's grace in salvation must be attended by an inward change to be received.
Click to expand...
do you mean God's grace is evident to all,.or evident in all 🤔
 
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