Do stillborns and deceased babies go to 'hell'
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2 Timothy 2:14
English Standard Version
Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.
English Standard Version
Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.
Matthew 19:13--14 then some of the children were brought to Jesus so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. 14: But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
As far as children that are miscarried or stillborn the same would apply. These children haven't had the ability to sin, (other than the imputed original sin) neither have they reached the age of accountability, so we will see our children in heaven when we arrive.
As far as children that are miscarried or stillborn the same would apply. These children haven't had the ability to sin, (other than the imputed original sin) neither have they reached the age of accountability, so we will see our children in heaven when we arrive.
So how would you define 'imputed original sin'?
What started all this was a conversation with my neighbor who is studying to be a Bible study leader (and maybe more) who said according to his Lutheran faith, 'imputed original sin' means we are born sinful and are only saved when we come to know and accept Jesus. New/stillborns don't have the chance to know Jesus and thus go to 'hell'.
When Adam and Eve ate from the tree they weren't supposed to eat from, they disobeyed what God told them and so sinned and were removed from the Garden of Eden. Because of their sin, we who are their descendants, have this "original sin" passed to us, therefore all are born into original sin. That being said, children whether born or not born (stillborn or miscarried) have original sin but are innocent. I think that your neighbor isn't understanding the implication of Matthew19:13-14. Jesus states that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these.
Again, children are innocent until the age of accountability. And before you ask, When is that? Scholars will tell you that it is different for each child, but God knows. So maybe have your neighbor read Matthew 19:13-14. Since Jesus is God and God cannot lie
Numbers 21:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie..." Titus 1:2 "...God that cannot lie... Hebrews 6:18 "...was impossible for God to lie..."
maybe he/she is unaware of the Matt 19:13-14 scripture reference.
After the age of accountability what your neighbor has said is completely true, but not till we have the ability to understand and decern who Jesus is and then accept or reject Him.
I hope this was helpful
This is true- although "imputed" in this case does not mean "Charged"; but it means "ascribed to/from". We aren't formally charged with eating from the tree like Adam; but the default fallen state of man is because of that.
This is not neccesarily true; although I think it is hasty to say they are automatically saved, they are not automatically condemned either.
We are born in a sinful state; but according to Romans 5, sin is not accounted for when there is no law. That doesn't mean there is no sin- it's just not accounted for. This doesn't get everyone who is ignorant of Moses off the hook, though- as Paul says the requirements of the law are written into our conscience- exactly WHEN this happens with any particular person is unknowable as far as I'm concerned.
On whether they will have a chance to know Jesus... I wouldn't be so quick to proclaim that as gospel. To say that God cannot interact directly with a child in the womb is... well... if someone thinks that, then they don't know God or the scriptures; that's all I can say.
Concepts such as "age of accountability" are manmade legal concepts- which are useful for civil government; but not so useful when determining the council of God on salvation of the soul. We aren't given a magic number in the scriptures like this. But what we are given is faith, and the understanding that God is perfectly just and all-knowing; and that he knows what to do in any given case.
There is an important distinction between "innocent" and "not guilty": it sounds like splitting hairs, but it helps avoid confusion. The guilty can be declared "not guilty" and not have to bear their guilt- but no one is truly innocent besides Christ. Not me, not the 'virgin' Mary, not even John the Baptist,- not even when we were children.
I still have more to say on this topic; but I have to pray and also deal with a number of annoying temporal things... I say that like they aren't important; they kind of are, but they're a lot less interesting.
For clarity- I don't want you to think that I am necessarily contradicting what you are saying in my post above- I can see that you are using the term "age of accountability" in a little different sense than in the way it is typically understood in civil law.
Yes I am
because we are discussing a Biblical issue. Also, what I meant by innocent is that the child (still born/miscarried) or before the age of accountability, by God's judgement, is not culpable of knowing (understanding) or committing an offense.Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." NIV
The Bible says that the angels always behold the face of the Father for the little ones.
Which angels are only sent to those that shall inherit eternal life, so the little ones are protected spiritually in their vulnerable state.
Which we are born innocent with no sin on our record.
We are not blamed for Adam and Eve's sin for the father shall not bear the sins of the son, and the son shall not bear the sins of the father, for everyone will bear their own sins.
But when they ate off the forbidden tree it gave them a choice between good and evil so they had to make a choice how they will behave.
So all their offspring is born with a choice so they are born not knowing God so they will sin before they repent and do right, so all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
We are born innocent with no sin on our record so the little ones before accountability should go to heaven.
I do not know if the baby has to be born or not, but the Bible says God knows us from the womb.
Thank you.When Adam and Eve ate from the tree they weren't supposed to eat from, they disobeyed what God told them and so sinned and were removed from the Garden of Eden. Because of their sin, we who are their descendants, have this "original sin" passed to us, therefore all are born into original sin. That being said, children whether born or not born (stillborn or miscarried) have original sin but are innocent. I think that your neighbor isn't understanding the implication of Matthew19:13-14. Jesus states that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these.
Again, children are innocent until the age of accountability. And before you ask, When is that? Scholars will tell you that it is different for each child, but God knows. So maybe have your neighbor read Matthew 19:13-14. Since Jesus is God and God cannot lie
Numbers 21:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie..." Titus 1:2 "...God that cannot lie... Hebrews 6:18 "...was impossible for God to lie..."
maybe he/she is unaware of the Matt 19:13-14 scripture reference.
After the age of accountability what your neighbor has said is completely true, but not till we have the ability to understand and decern who Jesus is and then accept or reject Him.
I hope this was helpful
I agree with the 'age of accountability' as that is what scripture states... if you do not know you are not guilty (fun fact: apparently ignorance of THIS law is bliss).
My neighbor hinges on the 'born into original sin' thing, as meaning since we are born into sin we are guilty by association regardless of age. I think it refers more to a world-condition, that sin having entered into the world, the world is predisposed to lead us from the truth once we understand what that is.
Thank you. Those are certainly valid points to be considered.
When I think of 'age of accountability' I don't think of a set number. I see it as more of a learning/maturity point. To me, it comes when we reach a point where we think we know enough to make our own decision about sin/God. And everyone reaches this point at a different chronological age. For some it might be 5, for others it might be 10, still others with certain learning disabilities it may never come at any age.
So, I'll take you back to something SomeDisciple said -
On whether they will have a chance to know Jesus... I wouldn't be so quick to proclaim that as gospel. To say that God cannot interact directly with a child in the womb is... well... if someone thinks that, then they don't know God or the scriptures; that's all I can say.
God says He knows us from when we are in the womb ... in your understanding, can God then interact with us in the womb, and if so can we then be born with some understanding of God?
I agree that the world will always attempt to lead us away from the truth in Jesus Christ and into sin, but the unborn haven't been influenced by the world, of course you know, and children aren't held accountable till God says so. I don't believe guilty by association, but guilty by lineage. To see how God loves children and to hopefully show that He wouldn't consign them to hell, lets take a look at Matthew 18.
"...the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a little child to him and placed the child among them. And he said: "Truly i tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in My name welcomes Me.
But if anyone causes one of these little ones - those who believe in Me to stumble (sin), it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For i tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven."
2Sam 12 David fasted and wept for the baby son he had with Bathsheba that was sick and ultimately died, after which he ate food. His servants questioned David about fasting and weeping and now he ate, bathed and anointed himself and seemed fine after the childs death. This was Davids response, "When the child was still alive I fasted and wept, for I said, "Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I can go to him, but he will not return to me." Was David saying that he would see him again in heaven? Most say yes, this is what it sounds like to me as well.
Personally, I've always thought that even without these scriptures, knowing that our God is a God of love, I personally couldn't fathom a loving God condemning a child to everlasting punishment for something he/she didn't know was sin and for the unborn, never having taken a breath or given the opportunity to say yes or no to sin. It's my 2 cents anyway.
OK, after much prayer, meditation, and procrastination, this is where I landed. Thank you for your input (and it is still welcome with this). And I will honor any credits requested.
Deuteronomy 1:39 "Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
This is when the tribes of Israel where in the desert and refused to enter the Promised Land because of fear of its inhabitants. God decided to punish the people by forcing them to wonder in the desert for 40 years, so that all of the generation that had refused God would die and never enter it. But as He says about the little ones: "who today have no knowledge of good and evil"… they inherited the land promised to their fathers. They were innocent of the sins of their fathers.
Paul wrote in Romans 7:7-11 …Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead.
9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.
Paul says he was alive, then learned right from wrong, and that was the source of his death. Once Paul came to understand Good and Evil, his carnal nature came to the fore and killed him. Until then, he was alive.
Then there’s David’s lament after the death of his 7-day old son…
2 Samuel 12:21 Then his servants said to him, "What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food." 22And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, "Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' 23But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."
And where was David going?
(Psalm 23:6) "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in The House of The LORD forever."
David was confident His little one would be there in heaven awaiting him.
Jesus said on the subject,
Matthew 18:3: "And He said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 18:10 "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 19:14: "...Suffer little children, and forbid them not to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
Jesus also summed it up with this:
John 9:41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of your sin. But now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.”
Think of Adam and Eve before they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They were with God, until they came to understand that there was an option. That’s when life changes to death.
So we are conceived alive, and remain so until we learn there is an option.
Is there an age of accountability to God?
Deuteronomy 1:39 "Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
This is when the tribes of Israel where in the desert and refused to enter the Promised Land because of fear of its inhabitants. God decided to punish the people by forcing them to wonder in the desert for 40 years, so that all of the generation that had refused God would die and never enter it. But as He says about the little ones: "who today have no knowledge of good and evil"… they inherited the land promised to their fathers. They were innocent of the sins of their fathers.
Paul wrote in Romans 7:7-11 …Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead.
9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.
Paul says he was alive, then learned right from wrong, and that was the source of his death. Once Paul came to understand Good and Evil, his carnal nature came to the fore and killed him. Until then, he was alive.
Then there’s David’s lament after the death of his 7-day old son…
2 Samuel 12:21 Then his servants said to him, "What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food." 22And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, "Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' 23But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."
And where was David going?
(Psalm 23:6) "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in The House of The LORD forever."
David was confident His little one would be there in heaven awaiting him.
Jesus said on the subject,
Matthew 18:3: "And He said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 18:10 "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 19:14: "...Suffer little children, and forbid them not to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
Jesus also summed it up with this:
John 9:41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of your sin. But now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.”
Think of Adam and Eve before they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They were with God, until they came to understand that there was an option. That’s when life changes to death.
So we are conceived alive, and remain so until we learn there is an option.
I looked this up and the interpretation of the Greek "tis" into the English "man" left open as to the generality of the "certain one" Jesus is referring to, and so it is very possible He was not including infants since He was speaking to a grown man and followed with, "Do not be amazed that I said, 'You must be born again...'" How can we tell whether God would or would not carry the spirit of any infant into the kingdom, especially considering that Jesus said, "of such is the kingdom of God."?
We are instructed, train up a child in the way that he should go... and he will not depart from it. Why should we assume that the child starts out departed from it when it isn't out of the question this saying suggests there is a (certain) time that he might?
Is a child included in the description given in Ephesians 2:1-3? Why would Jesus need to die for the whole world if some never needed it?
Everyone must be born from above to enter the kingdom of God.