Predestination is misunderstood...

[Rufus]

Sorry but I don't know how you can equate salvation to a merit badge,

That is just as bad as saying I'm saved by qn unmerited favour.

You can try to justify salvation as unmerited, all you like, it will never ever wash with me.

The fact is, you have all justified God's grace as a favour, not me.

Then you have all justified that favour as something that belongs to you, because your actions are not your fault.

Well when you will see that is load of self saving gratitude then you may see where it is I'm coming from.

Salvation come after being saved.

And not before.




.

When someone is given something they don't deserve, that by definition is "favor", as it is a gracious kindness! And as pointed out yesterday, the primary definition of the noun "grace" is. "unmerited divine assistance given to humans...".

Just today in post 1718 I posted several passages that confirm this definition; for none of those passages teach that God acted graciously toward Israel because Israel was worthy! To the contrary! God acted for sake of his own Name. Nowhere in scripture is grace every portrayed as being given to the worthy! Salvation itself is by Grace (Eph 2:8-9).

Another sure-fire way we can know this is true is by asking this question: Was God morally obligated to save any sinful human being? If you answer "no", then the issue is settled; if you answer "yes", then you're saying God was indebted to us morally. How do you answer, sir?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

When someone is given something they don't deserve, that by definition is "favor", as it is a gracious kindness! And as pointed out yesterday, the primary definition of the noun "grace" is. "unmerited divine assistance given to humans...".

Just today in post 1718 I posted several passages that confirm this definition; for none of those passages teach that God acted graciously toward Israel because Israel was worthy! To the contrary! God acted for sake of his own Name. Nowhere in scripture is grace every portrayed as being given to the worthy! Salvation itself is by Grace (Eph 2:8-9).

Another sure-fire way we can know this is true is by asking this question: Was God morally obligated to save any sinful human being? If you answer "no", then the issue is settled; if you answer "yes", then you're saying God was indebted to us morally. How do you answer, sir?

No when God gives you salvation it is not a favor unmerited, or merited , it is not a favour it is his salvation.

 

[Dino246]

I have read again, and I'm still saying the same thing, that being saved by Grace is still being saved by something. And not nothing.

And you're still missing the point.

When a person says I am saved by something unmerited, they're really saying I am being saved by nothing.

Dead wrong. They are saying that they are saved by something that they didn't earn.

When someone is given something based on merit, it is because that person has done something worthy of recognition and reward. That's called "merited". When the recipient has done nothing worthy of recognition and reward, but receives something anyway, that's called "unmerited".

We have done nothing whatsoever to be worthy of salvation, but God gives us salvation anyway. It is an unmerited favour.

Instead of arguing based on your misconceptions of the meanings of words, go and look them up first.

 

[Dino246]

No when God gives you salvation it is not a favor unmerited, or merited , it is not a favour it is his salvation.

 

[tylerbones1313]

No when God gives you salvation it is not a favor unmerited, or merited , it is not a favour it is his salvation.

The Bible explicitly defines salvation as a gift, emphasizing God's undeserved favor. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes this clear: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Grace means receiving something we don't deserve. To claim salvation is not a favor clashes directly with the very definition of grace. Furthermore, Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." God offers salvation freely despite our sinfulness, proving salvation is neither earned nor deserved.

Attempting to downplay God's grace can be dangerous to one's faith. Romans 11:6 warns, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace." If we could somehow earn salvation, it would negate Christ's sacrifice which was the ultimate act of grace. To argue that salvation is not a favor insults this sacrifice and implies a self-righteousness that opposes God's loving nature. Additionally, John 3:16, perhaps the most famous verse on salvation, reminds us that "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." This act of giving highlights the true nature of God's freely-offered salvation.

The Bible reminds us that, due to our sinfulness, we are utterly incapable of reaching a state of worthiness before God on our own. Romans 3:23 emphasizes, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." If salvation were based on our merit, none of us could achieve it. Isaiah 64:6 describes our righteousness as "filthy rags" before God's holiness. Yet, out of His love and mercy, God offers salvation as a gift – not because we deserve it, but despite our fallen nature.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The Bible explicitly defines salvation as a gift, emphasizing God's undeserved favor. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes this clear: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Grace means receiving something we don't deserve. To claim salvation is not a favor clashes directly with the very definition of grace. Furthermore, Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." God offers salvation freely despite our sinfulness, proving salvation is neither earned nor deserved.

Attempting to downplay God's grace can be dangerous to one's faith. Romans 11:6 warns, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace." If we could somehow earn salvation, it would negate Christ's sacrifice which was the ultimate act of grace. To argue that salvation is not a favor insults this sacrifice and implies a self-righteousness that opposes God's loving nature. Additionally, John 3:16, perhaps the most famous verse on salvation, reminds us that "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." This act of giving highlights the true nature of God's freely-offered salvation.

The Bible reminds us that, due to our sinfulness, we are utterly incapable of reaching a state of worthiness before God on our own. Romans 3:23 emphasizes, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." If salvation were based on our merit, none of us could achieve it. Isaiah 64:6 describes our righteousness as "filthy rags" before God's holiness. Yet, out of His love and mercy, God offers salvation as a gift – not because we deserve it, but despite our fallen nature.

your still calling salvation a favour, it is not a favour.

You don't get a favour because your undeserving, or because it's unmerited.

Remove undeserving and remove unmerited, and your still being given a favour, when you define salvation as unmerited or merited

Salvation Is not a favour.

Salvation is not your free gift either,

Salvation is God's gift.

Salvation can be given to you before you die and after you die..

Salvation is God's gift to give when he decides and not before.

This is ludicrous, everyone of theese saved by Grace people normally always say you can not be saved by works.

but a favor is an act of works you take for granted.

salvation is not something to be taken for granted.

you are saved By faith first before salvation is given.


.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

And you're still missing the point.


Dead wrong. They are saying that they are saved by something that they didn't earn.

When someone is given something based on merit, it is because that person has done something worthy of recognition and reward. That's called "merited". When the recipient has done nothing worthy of recognition and reward, but receives something anyway, that's called "unmerited".

We have done nothing whatsoever to be worthy of salvation, but God gives us salvation anyway. It is an unmerited favour.

Instead of arguing based on your misconceptions of the meanings of words, go and look them up first.

You Have just decided to disagree with everything i say, Just because you want to. This behaviour is unmerited, do you understand this behaviour.

 

[Rufus]

No when God gives you salvation it is not a favor unmerited, or merited , it is not a favour it is his salvation.

But what you don't want to understand is that grace is the MEANS to his salvation (Eph 2:8-9). Without God acting graciously, there is no salvation! Grace is the prerequisite to salvation. So, why didn't you answer my question in the last paragraph of my last post, which was: Another sure-fire way we can know this is true [grace is unmerited favor] is by asking this question: Was God morally obligated to save any sinful human being? If you answer "no", then the issue is settled; if you answer "yes", then you're saying God was indebted to us morally. How do you answer, sir?

 

[tylerbones1313]

your still calling salvation a favour, it is not a favour.

You don't get a favour because your undeserving, or because it's unmerited.

Remove undeserving and remove unmerited, and your still being given a favour, when you define salvation as unmerited or merited

Salvation Is not a favour.

Salvation is not your free gift either,

Salvation is God's gift.

Salvation can be given to you before you die and after you die..

Salvation is God's gift to give when he decides and not before.

This is ludicrous, everyone of theese saved by Grace people normally always say you can not be saved by works.

but a favor is an act of works you take for granted.

salvation is not something to be taken for granted.

you are saved By faith first before salvation is given.


.

Everyone here is showing clear Scripture to refute some of the things you are saying, but I don't see you posted Scriptures to support it. Why is that?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

But what you don't want to understand is that grace is the MEANS to his salvation (Eph 2:8-9). Without God acting graciously, there is no salvation! Grace is the prerequisite to salvation. So, why didn't you answer my question in the last paragraph of my last post, which was: Another sure-fire way we can know this is true [grace is unmerited favor] is by asking this question: Was God morally obligated to save any sinful human being? If you answer "no", then the issue is settled; if you answer "yes", then you're saying God was indebted to us morally. How do you answer, sir?

Your almost there, but not quite.

To be saved by Grace means to be saved By Good will.

When you say saved by Grace you should not say I'm saved By salvation.

Because the Grace you are saved By first is the Good will Grace of Faith.

To give some one Grace is also to give someone time.

Extending the grace

You do not respond in kind when someone is rude to you, but you let it go anyway, and give them grace (time)

You give some one Grace by being present when there in need of support. (Time)

You understand when a friend makes a mistake you give them grace understanding people make mistakes. Or you understand there may be a reason for there mistake, so you give them grace. (Time)

All theese acts of grace you give because you are kind. You don't give theese acts of grace as a favor.

People give favours for a favour.

 

[Rufus]

your still calling salvation a favour, it is not a favour.

You don't get a favour because your undeserving, or because it's unmerited.

Remove undeserving and remove unmerited, and your still being given a favour, when you define salvation as unmerited or merited

Salvation Is not a favour.

Salvation is not your free gift either,

Salvation is God's gift.

Salvation can be given to you before you die and after you die..

Salvation is God's gift to give when he decides and not before.

This is ludicrous, everyone of theese saved by Grace people normally always say you can not be saved by works.

but a favor is an act of works you take for granted.

salvation is not something to be taken for granted.

you are saved By faith first before salvation is given.


.

But it is God bestowing the favor and salvation is his work, not ours. Read the unconditional, unilateral NC promises in Jer 31 and Ezek 36.

And, no, we're all saved by being brought back from the dead and raised from our spiritual tombs so that we can believe. The dead have zero spiritual ability to please God, since everyone us prior to our conversion were sworn enemies of God. Unregenerated hearts that are desperately wicked and deceitful above all else cannot please God. It's impossible!

Jer 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
NIV

The above passage actually teaches the fundamentally important Law of Logic known as the Law of Identity! This law says no living entity can change its nature/essence. A is A and can never be B! Not even God can change his nature! But now we're supposed to believe we can change our sinful nature and come to faith all by ourselves, and then as consequence God saves us for this mighty work we did by ourselves? And we change our sin nature to become what specifically: Good, righteous and/holy?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Everyone here is showing clear Scripture to refute some of the things you are saying, but I don't see you posted Scriptures to support it. Why is that?

Oh I have posted thousands of scriptures proving you are saved by faith first before salvation.

So yeah I'm hesitant to have God's word become something unmerited.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Everyone here is showing clear Scripture to refute some of the things you are saying, but I don't see you posted Scriptures to support it. Why is that?

I also do even provide scripture when I'm not posting it in my definition. As I like to know if people know which scripture I'm talking about, without mentioning the scripture, I conceal it.

Because why.

Well because so many people put the God that you serve in a box, and reject the scripture you post.

It's much more of a soft blow when, just the understanding gets rejected,

Because why.

Well it's not Good to see scripture rejected

It's become a stumbling block.

You must get down to understanding basics first before cherry picking scriptures.

This is also extending grace 😊

 

[Rufus]

Your almost there, but not quite.

To be saved by Grace means to be saved By Good will.

When you say saved by Grace you should not say I'm saved By salvation.

Because the Grace you are saved By first is the Good will Grace of Faith.

To give some one Grace is also to give someone time.

Extending the grace

You do not respond in kind when someone is rude to you, but you let it go anyway, and give them grace (time)

You give some one Grace by being present when there in need of support. (Time)

You understand when a friend makes a mistake you give them grace understanding people make mistakes. Or you understand there may be a reason for there mistake, so you give them grace. (Time)

All these acts of grace you give because you are kind. You don't give theese acts of grace as a favor.

People give favours for a favour.

And God gives favor to the unworthy! After all, he doesn't think like a man or act like a man, does he (Isa 55:8-9)? And you still didn't my question. There's no need to wax verbose. Just answer the pointed question, which for the third time is: Was God morally obligated to save any sinful human being? If you answer "no" [that grace is undeserved favor], then the issue is settled; if you answer "yes", then you're saying God was indebted to us morally. How do you answer, sir?

P.S. Not responding in kind to a rude remark is not grace. It is mercy! Mercy and Grace differ from one another; therefore, they should not be conflated. Mercy withholds from an object what he deserves. Grace, on the other hand, gives to an object what isn't deserved.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

But it is God bestowing the favor and salvation is his work, not ours. Read the unconditional, unilateral NC promises in Jer 31 and Ezek 36.

And, no, we're all saved by being brought back from the dead and raised from our spiritual tombs so that we can believe. The dead have zero spiritual ability to please God, since everyone us prior to our conversion were sworn enemies of God. Unregenerated hearts that are desperately wicked and deceitful above all else cannot please God. It's impossible!

Jer 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
NIV

The above passage actually teaches the fundamentally important Law of Logic known as the Law of Identity! This law says no living entity can change its nature/essence. A is A and can never be B! Not even God can change his nature! But now we're supposed to believe we can change our sinful nature and come to faith all by ourselves, and then as consequence God saves us for this mighty work we did by ourselves? And we change our sin nature to become what specifically: Good, righteous and/holy?

do you know what bestowed means here 🤔

1 Kings 10:26 King James Version (KJV)And Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen: and he had a thousand and four hundred chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, whom he bestowed in the cities for chariots, and with the king at Jerusalem.

 

[tylerbones1313]

your still calling salvation a favour, it is not a favour.

You don't get a favour because your undeserving, or because it's unmerited.

Remove undeserving and remove unmerited, and your still being given a favour, when you define salvation as unmerited or merited

Salvation Is not a favour.

Salvation is not your free gift either,

Salvation is God's gift.

Salvation can be given to you before you die and after you die..

Salvation is God's gift to give when he decides and not before.

This is ludicrous, everyone of theese saved by Grace people normally always say you can not be saved by works.

but a favor is an act of works you take for granted.

salvation is not something to be taken for granted.

you are saved By faith first before salvation is given.


.

Salvation can be given to you before you die and after you die..

The Bible presents a clear urgency about accepting Jesus Christ for salvation during one's lifetime. Hebrews 9:27 states, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." This verse emphasizes that our judgment follows immediately after death, leaving no opportunity for post-death repentance or decisions. Furthermore, Jesus' words in Luke 16:19-31 about the rich man and Lazarus illustrate the finality of the afterlife, with no indication that a person's eternal destination can be changed after death. Emphasizing the urgency of the present, 2 Corinthians 6:2 says, "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

Hebrews 9:27 states, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

1. And as it is appointed unto men once to die: This highlights a universal human experience – death is an unavoidable event that will happen to everyone, and only happens once.
2. but after this the judgment: This stresses that death isn't the end of the story. Immediately after death, individuals face God's judgment regarding their spiritual state.
3. The Finality of Death: Humans get one lifetime on earth; there are no second chances after death. This underscores the importance of living with an awareness of spiritual matters.
4. Accountability and Eternity: Everyone will face the consequences of their choices and their relationship with God. The verse hints at the two possible destinations following judgment: eternal life or eternal separation from God.
5. Urgency for the Present: It's unwise to postpone spiritual matters. Our decisions and acceptance (or rejection) of Jesus Christ while alive determine our eternal destiny.

but a favor is an act of works you take for granted.

The statement that a favor is an act earned through works contradicts the core biblical principle of God's unmerited favor, known as grace. Ephesians 2:8-9 clarifies, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Here, the Bible explicitly states that salvation, often seen as the ultimate "favor," is not a reward for our actions, but a gift freely given by God. Additionally, Romans 5:6-8 emphasizes that God's love is shown even towards sinners, sending Christ to die for us "while we were yet sinners." This emphasizes God's unconditional love and favor, not dependent on any human merit. True biblical favors, like salvation, reflect God's nature – freely given and undeserved.

you are saved By faith first before salvation is given.

Instead of a clear-cut "faith first, then salvation later" approach, the Bible depicts faith and salvation as parts of a tightly woven process. Ephesians 2:8-9 states, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Here, salvation is presented as a gift received "through faith," implying a simultaneous occurrence.

Additionally, James 2:17 clarifies, "Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." True, saving faith is not just intellectual assent but manifests in a transformed life. This doesn't negate faith's importance, but emphasizes it as the driving force behind a life-changing relationship with God, not a mere prerequisite for a separate act of salvation.

Therefore, understanding salvation from a purely sequential "faith first, then salvation later" perspective can be misleading. Faith and salvation, according to the Bible, work hand-in-hand, with faith being the catalyst and evidence of a genuine transformation caused by God's grace.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

And God gives favor to the unworthy! After all, he doesn't think like a man or act like a man, does he (Isa 55:8-9)? And you still didn't my question. There's no need to wax verbose. Just answer the pointed question, which for the third time is: Was God morally obligated to save any sinful human being? If you answer "no" [that grace is undeserved favor], then the issue is settled; if you answer "yes", then you're saying God was indebted to us morally. How do you answer, sir?

P.S. Not responding in kind to a rude remark is not grace. It is mercy! Mercy and Grace differ from one another; therefore, they should not be conflated. Mercy withholds from an object what he deserves. Grace, on the other hand, gives to an object what isn't deserved.

No God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Which means if the mercy seed he gives to all people doesn't bloom the heart will harden


Which equals your mercy seed not hatching in to faith or love for God

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Salvation can be given to you before you die and after you die..

The Bible presents a clear urgency about accepting Jesus Christ for salvation during one's lifetime. Hebrews 9:27 states, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." This verse emphasizes that our judgment follows immediately after death, leaving no opportunity for post-death repentance or decisions. Furthermore, Jesus' words in Luke 16:19-31 about the rich man and Lazarus illustrate the finality of the afterlife, with no indication that a person's eternal destination can be changed after death. Emphasizing the urgency of the present, 2 Corinthians 6:2 says, "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

Hebrews 9:27 states, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

1. And as it is appointed unto men once to die: This highlights a universal human experience – death is an unavoidable event that will happen to everyone, and only happens once.
2. but after this the judgment: This stresses that death isn't the end of the story. Immediately after death, individuals face God's judgment regarding their spiritual state.
3. The Finality of Death: Humans get one lifetime on earth; there are no second chances after death. This underscores the importance of living with an awareness of spiritual matters.
4. Accountability and Eternity: Everyone will face the consequences of their choices and their relationship with God. The verse hints at the two possible destinations following judgment: eternal life or eternal separation from God.
5. Urgency for the Present: It's unwise to postpone spiritual matters. Our decisions and acceptance (or rejection) of Jesus Christ while alive determine our eternal destiny.

but a favor is an act of works you take for granted.

The statement that a favor is an act earned through works contradicts the core biblical principle of God's unmerited favor, known as grace. Ephesians 2:8-9 clarifies, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Here, the Bible explicitly states that salvation, often seen as the ultimate "favor," is not a reward for our actions, but a gift freely given by God. Additionally, Romans 5:6-8 emphasizes that God's love is shown even towards sinners, sending Christ to die for us "while we were yet sinners." This emphasizes God's unconditional love and favor, not dependent on any human merit. True biblical favors, like salvation, reflect God's nature – freely given and undeserved.

you are saved By faith first before salvation is given.

Instead of a clear-cut "faith first, then salvation later" approach, the Bible depicts faith and salvation as parts of a tightly woven process. Ephesians 2:8-9 states, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Here, salvation is presented as a gift received "through faith," implying a simultaneous occurrence.

Additionally, James 2:17 clarifies, "Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." True, saving faith is not just intellectual assent but manifests in a transformed life. This doesn't negate faith's importance, but emphasizes it as the driving force behind a life-changing relationship with God, not a mere prerequisite for a separate act of salvation.

Therefore, understanding salvation from a purely sequential "faith first, then salvation later" perspective can be misleading. Faith and salvation, according to the Bible, work hand-in-hand, with faith being the catalyst and evidence of a genuine transformation caused by God's grace.

answered in the above post

 

[sawdust]

While The "flesh" (translated from the Gr. "sarx") can literally mean, "flesh (as stripped of the skin", for example, it is used in other ways as well. "It [also] used symbolically of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties [physically or morally] and passions). or (specifically) human being (as such)".

I do not argue the flesh can used in the sense of a sinful mindset but it does not alter the fact the sin nature is innate to our bodies, not our souls. Romans 7 makes it clear the "other law" also known as the "law of sin", what we call the sin nature, resides in the flesh, our physical bodies as distinct from our minds which is a function of the soul.

It is God who creates our souls. I'm sure you do not think God created our souls depraved but your insistence our souls are innately depraved means you are accusing God of doing such a thing.

The flesh locks our soul into it's depravity and along with our ignorance of God (being spiritually dead) ensures, apart from grace, we will become utterly depraved over time. Even the absolute best of us will succumb to this situation. Hence the cry goes out ...

Romans 7:24&25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So...the bottom line here is when Jesus told the Jews of his day that they were evil or that the entire generation was evil, he was not merely speaking about their physical anatomy.

And I have said time and time again the soul does not get a free pass but is enslaved to the sin nature apart from God's grace.

Why do you keep arguing the obvious? The sin nature is innate to the body, not the soul. The soul becomes depraved, the flesh is born depraved. It's very, very simple.

 

[tylerbones1313]

do you know what bestowed means here 🤔

1 Kings 10:26 King James Version (KJV)And Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen: and he had a thousand and four hundred chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, whom he bestowed in the cities for chariots, and with the king at Jerusalem.

The core meaning of חלק (chalaq) is to "divide" or "distribute." It can also convey the idea of "portioning out" or "assigning."