The church, Paul agrees, Post Tribulation.

[Evmur]

Can you repost this the right way please?
If I answer, it will just continue to cascade as a messed up post.
Thanks

Nah .. but I do beg your pardon.

you could simply answer who comes first Antichrist or our Lord Jesus?

 

[Nehemiah6]

...but Jesus said after the tribulation they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

And who are the "they"? Are they not the unbelieving and unrighteous who will weep and wail at His Second Coming? Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7) So do you see the saints weeping and wailing because Christ is coming for them? Or do you see the absurdity of connecting the Rapture with this?

 

[Medad]

Agreed. Once again we are seeing a failure to rightly divide the promises to Israel from the promises to the body of Christ. I believe Israel will be caught up post-trib, but the body of Christ will be caught up before Jacob's trouble.

There's only two advents.

 

[PennEd]

I do beg your pardon.

No need to beg. You are hereby granted forgiveness!

you could simply answer who comes first Antichrist or our Lord Jesus?

Sure.

Jesus meets His Church, and those that had died in Him, in the air 1st.

They will be with Him (NOT on Earth) until 7 or possibly just the 3.5 yrs of Great Tribulation are finished.

So the antichrist will arrive FIRST on Earth before Jesus comes back to EARTH.

 

[Evmur]

And who are the "they"? Are they not the unbelieving and unrighteous who will weep and wail at His Second Coming? Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7) So do you see the saints weeping and wailing because Christ is coming for them? Or do you see the absurdity of connecting the Rapture with this?

I don't think so for the same passage says He will send His holy angels out to gather His elect ....

 

[Nehemiah6]

There's only two advents.

Christ coming in the clouds and returning to Heaven with all the saints is definitely NOT an "advent", since the Resurrection/Rapture occurs "in the twinkling of an eye".

 

[Nehemiah6]

I don't think so for the same passage says He will send His holy angels out to gather His elect ....

And once again, when Christ comes at the Rapture He comes PERSONALLY. He does not send out His angels at that time. Check it out for yourself. So now you have created TWO problems for yourself.

 

[Evmur]

No need to beg. You are hereby granted forgiveness!


Sure.

Jesus meets His Church, and those that had died in Him, in the air 1st.

They will be with Him (NOT on Earth) until 7 or possibly just the 3.5 yrs of Great Tribulation are finished.

So the antichrist will arrive FIRST on Earth before Jesus comes back to EARTH.

Yo

umm no don't buy it. Antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of His appearing.

Matt. 24 9. Jesus says "they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death and you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake ..."

 

[Evmur]

And once again, when Christ comes at the Rapture He comes PERSONALLY. He does not send out His angels at that time. Check it out for yourself. So now you have created TWO problems for yourself.

sure
immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory and He will send His angels out with a loud trumpet blast and gather His elect ....

Same as 2.Thess.

 

[PennEd]

Yo

umm no don't buy it. Antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of His appearing.

Matt. 24 9. Jesus says "they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death and you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake ..."

Well I ain’t selling Scripture!
Just quoting it.

Ummmm…. Who said we wouldn’t go through tribulations? We will absolutely experience man’s wrath.

But why on Earth would we experience God’s wrath!?

 

[Evmur]

Well I ain’t selling Scripture!
Just quoting it.

Ummmm…. Who said we wouldn’t go through tribulations? We will absolutely experience man’s wrath.

But why in Eath would we experience God’s wrath!?

oh never God's wrath, we are totally agreed on that.

 

[PennEd]

oh never God's wrath, we are totally agreed on that.

Besides all that, we have to be outta here BEFORE the Antichrist seats his butt in the temple of God.

Else Jesus’s Word is void.

Jesus said NO ONE knows the day or hour of His return.

Once the AC sits in the temple, there will be 3.5 years until Christ comes back. (See Daniel)

So if we are still here, every Christian will know when Jesus will return.

Kinda airtight case for at most a mid trib rapture if not a pre trib.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ummmm…. Who said we wouldn’t go through tribulations?

Right.

Paul even acknowledged that the Thessalonians themselves were experiencing such:

"in all your persecutionS and tribulationS [G2347 - thlipsesin ] THAT YE ENDURE [present tense]" - 2 Thessalonians 1:4

(the context and setting in which Paul writes this second letter to them)

- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2th/1/4/t_concif_1117004

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Besides all that, we have to be outta here BEFORE the Antichrist seats his butt in the temple of God.

Right, and in fact we will be "outta here" BEFORE his (the man of sin's) "WHOSE COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PAROUSIA" (2Th2:9a) happens [parallel several other passages], which "COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PAROUSIA" of him (man of sin) is WELL-BEFORE when he will do the "SIT" thing (v.4b) at mid-trib (in fact, 3.5 years before that point in the chronology! ALL RELATED PASSAGES on this point AGREE!)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And once again, when Christ comes at the Rapture He comes PERSONALLY. He does not send out His angels at that time. Check it out for yourself.

That is correct!

 

[Evmur]

Besides all that, we have to be outta here BEFORE the Antichrist seats his butt in the temple of God.

Else Jesus’s Word is void.

Jesus said NO ONE knows the day or hour of His return.

Once the AC sits in the temple, there will be 3.5 years until Christ comes back. (See Daniel)

So if we are still here, every Christian will know when Jesus will return.

Kinda airtight case for at most a mid trib rapture if not a pre trib.

I'm not averse to mid trib

no I think his marching into the temple will come as a complete shock and surprise to everybody. It will be a breach of whatever pact he has going with the Jews. I believe he will be slain the moment he utters his blasphemy.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I don't think so for the same passage says He will send His holy angels out to gather His elect ....

At this "GREAT" trumpet (Matt24:29-31&parallels), notice WHO (and TO WHERE) the "gathering" pertains: SEE Isaiah 27:9,12-13

(and IN WHAT MANNER they will be gathered: "ONE BY ONE" [NOT "AS ONE," as WE will be!!])

 

[Medad]

Paul, in his first letter to the Thessalonians, said that "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman (the very SAME word that Jesus used in the plural when referencing the "PANGS" ['beginning of'])... which is what Jesus had already talked about in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE [(bringing deception); 'A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis]'] (which is the FIRST/INITIAL one of THOSE "birth pangS" Jesus spoke of).

How you had written it (in past posts) is that Paul was saying "birth PANGS [PLURAL]," but he actually said "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (1Th5:1-3, where speaking of the Day of the Lord's ARRIVAL point in time). IOW, it does NOT commence at the MIDDLE or END of the Trib years, but at its START.


Once this is acknowledged (from the text itself), one can then place things in their proper time-slot [/chronology].



Many people mistake this, thus come to incorrect conclusions as to Paul's actual point(s).

Contradictory to jesus's words matthew twenty four thirty moving on

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I don't think so for the same passage says He will send His holy angels out to gather His elect ....

At this "GREAT" trumpet (Matt24:29-31&parallels), notice WHO (and TO WHERE) the "gathering" pertains: SEE Isaiah 27:9,12-13

(and IN WHAT MANNER they will be gathered: "ONE BY ONE" [NOT "AS ONE," as WE will be!!])










Isa 27:9 a
By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin [read Rom11:27!! "when I shall take away THEIR [Israel's] SINS"; see Dan9:24!! Rom11:27,25,15... Hos5:14-6:3, etc etc]
[...]
Isa 27:12
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
Isa 27:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet [Matt24:29-31 +] shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.









You are INSERTING yourself (us / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") INTO a context NOT ABOUT "US"


In the Matthew 24:29-31 (&parallels) CONTEXT, it is THOSE who've been judicially SCATTERED who are the ones BEING "GATHERED" (re-gathered into ONE PLACE upon the EARTH--This is NOT "RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]"! The Church WHICH IS HIS BODY is NOT who've been JUDICIALLY SCATTERED!]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Contradictory to jesus's words matthew twenty four thirty moving on

In what way is what I put there (not to mention, some other posts) "contradictory" to it?



[see my Post #59, for example... and rebut the points I've made there, if you'd like: https://christianchat.com/threads/the-church-paul-agrees-post-tribulation.214255/post-5252457 ]