I have yet to meet a genuine Christian who takes any credit for his or her salvation. If it is purely by the grace of God, then no one can (or will) take any credit or glory. But all sinners must BELIEVE and that is what the Bible says. God does not do the believing for you. You had to believe and obey the Gospel, and so did I (and all others saved by grace).
Predestination is misunderstood...
- Thread starter Genez
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And saving faith is generated by the Gospel (the Word of God) (Rom 10:17). At the same time the Holy Spirit always accompanies the Gospel message so that sinners may be convicted and convinced. If God were to give the GIFT of saving faith to anyone, He would give it to all mankind, since He desires the salvation of all men. Instead He commands (1) that the Gospel be preached to every creature, (2) that all men everywhere should repent, and (3) that all men everywhere should believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.
Yes, and it's a natural faith by virtue that we all have it. But in salvation we need the righteousness not of the law but the righteousness of Christ which is the righteousness of God through faith...Philippians 3:9.
Ephesians 2:8-9 makes the same point...the faith, like salvation and grace, are not of ourselves.
Ephesians 2:8-9 makes the same point...the faith, like salvation and grace, are not of ourselves.
Not expressly no. But there is a natural faith and a given faith. Philippians 3:9 identifies it as both the faith of Christ and the faith given by God wherein we obtain the righteousness of Christ.
It is splitting hairs in one regard and I also believe those genuinely saved are partial to a testimony that ascribes all the honor to God. And all sinners not must, but also will exercise faith to be saved.
And my apologies if it seemed that I am trying to injure in any way the genuine witness of another believer or call one's relationship to God in question.
It is splitting hairs in one regard and I also believe those genuinely saved are partial to a testimony that ascribes all the honor to God. And all sinners not must, but also will exercise faith to be saved.
And my apologies if it seemed that I am trying to injure in any way the genuine witness of another believer or call one's relationship to God in question.
The passage you cite doesn't teach that. The text does not speak to when the Holy Spirit is given.
John 1:12-13
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
NIV
Also note that these "children of God" were not born out of a human decision. In fact, the above passage harmonizes nicely with:
John 11:26
26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
NIV
In this logical and/or chronological order -- "lives and believes"!
As stated yesterday, there is a strong analogy between physical and spiritual birth. Please note these parallels:
1. Just as physical birth requires two people of the opposite sex to procreate, likewise scripture teaches that God's elect are born of the Spirit and the Word.
2. The source of all Wisdom is God. The three persons of the Godhead are always spoken of in the masculine gender. And God's Wisdom is revealed to the world in his Word, and Wisdom itself is spoken of in the feminine gender (Prov 1:20-21).
3. Just as a man and a woman are different from each other physically, likewise so the Spirit and the Word differ. The Holy Spirit is a living personality graciously bestowed upon God's elect and subjectively experienced by all believers in time and space; whereas [Gospel] Truth is objectively revealed to all in the holy scriptures but only received by those who have been born of the Spirit.
4. In John 3, The Holy Spirit is likened to the wind by Jesus, as He mysteriously and secretly goes hither and tither as as he sovereignly wills. Conversely, God's objective Truth is either sought out by the sons of men, or we "pillars of the truth" seek out unbelievers to whom we can reveal this Gospel Truth.
5. Physical life begins at conception, concealed in the woman's womb -- that life not being revealed to the world until many months later when actual birth takes place. Likewise, everyone us, whether we realize it or not, have had our own personal "on the road to Damascus" conversion experience, whether that experience was so subtle and nuanced that it went undetected (or virtually so) by us, or whether we had a more dramatic experience along the lines of the apostle Paul whereby we were more more acutely aware of our conversion. Who can say that a believer cannot be born (conceived) of the Spirit some time before he came to faith, and that the Spirit wasn't "concealed" in us until such time that we manifested our spiritual birth to the world by our confession of faith to the Gospel truth? Many of us could have been spiritually alive as concealed "embyros" up until the time of our profession of faith in the Truth, at which time our spiritual birth was initially revealed to the outside world, as well as to ourselves. We could have all moved from the stage of "embyro" to a "babe in Christ" to maturity.
Finally, in regard to this analogy, I think Cornelius in Acts 10 makes for a highly interesting and intriguing case study that raises more than a few questions.
John 1:12-13
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
NIV
Also note that these "children of God" were not born out of a human decision. In fact, the above passage harmonizes nicely with:
John 11:26
26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
NIV
In this logical and/or chronological order -- "lives and believes"!
As stated yesterday, there is a strong analogy between physical and spiritual birth. Please note these parallels:
1. Just as physical birth requires two people of the opposite sex to procreate, likewise scripture teaches that God's elect are born of the Spirit and the Word.
2. The source of all Wisdom is God. The three persons of the Godhead are always spoken of in the masculine gender. And God's Wisdom is revealed to the world in his Word, and Wisdom itself is spoken of in the feminine gender (Prov 1:20-21).
3. Just as a man and a woman are different from each other physically, likewise so the Spirit and the Word differ. The Holy Spirit is a living personality graciously bestowed upon God's elect and subjectively experienced by all believers in time and space; whereas [Gospel] Truth is objectively revealed to all in the holy scriptures but only received by those who have been born of the Spirit.
4. In John 3, The Holy Spirit is likened to the wind by Jesus, as He mysteriously and secretly goes hither and tither as as he sovereignly wills. Conversely, God's objective Truth is either sought out by the sons of men, or we "pillars of the truth" seek out unbelievers to whom we can reveal this Gospel Truth.
5. Physical life begins at conception, concealed in the woman's womb -- that life not being revealed to the world until many months later when actual birth takes place. Likewise, everyone us, whether we realize it or not, have had our own personal "on the road to Damascus" conversion experience, whether that experience was so subtle and nuanced that it went undetected (or virtually so) by us, or whether we had a more dramatic experience along the lines of the apostle Paul whereby we were more more acutely aware of our conversion. Who can say that a believer cannot be born (conceived) of the Spirit some time before he came to faith, and that the Spirit wasn't "concealed" in us until such time that we manifested our spiritual birth to the world by our confession of faith to the Gospel truth? Many of us could have been spiritually alive as concealed "embyros" up until the time of our profession of faith in the Truth, at which time our spiritual birth was initially revealed to the outside world, as well as to ourselves. We could have all moved from the stage of "embyro" to a "babe in Christ" to maturity.
Finally, in regard to this analogy, I think Cornelius in Acts 10 makes for a highly interesting and intriguing case study that raises more than a few questions.
Our righteousness is the result of grace getting our flesh out of the way so that our soul can choose and believe what is to become our faith in Christ.
Grace takes our flesh in puts it in a straight jacket while God presents to our soul what God requires that we must choose to believe in in order to become saved.
If grace did not put our flesh in a straight jacket? Our souls could never believe in Christ. That is why we needed to be saved by grace.
Without grace being supplied by God? No person could ever believe. Our flesh would tyrannize our souls.
But, on the other hand.. Grace does not make us believe as Calvinists have distorted grace to mean. Grace does not tyrannize our soul.
...........
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Grace takes our flesh in puts it in a straight jacket while God presents to our soul what God requires that we must choose to believe in in order to become saved.
If grace did not put our flesh in a straight jacket? Our souls could never believe in Christ. That is why we needed to be saved by grace.
For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are opposed to the flesh;
for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that
you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do. Galatians 5:17
Without grace being supplied by God? No person could ever believe. Our flesh would tyrannize our souls.
But, on the other hand.. Grace does not make us believe as Calvinists have distorted grace to mean. Grace does not tyrannize our soul.
...........
...............
I don't get why you think us using our will by agreeing with God that He is right, is somehow making us righteous? It is simply using what God has given us in accordance with it's design. Without a volition of our own, we could not make any form of response to God, positive or negative. There would in effect be no "us" to come under judgement.
How many times does God have to tell you to believe before you will do it? Do you think He will do for you what He tells you to do?
Even after we are saved we must decide between believing God's word or not believing.
Revelation 2:7
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches
How many times does God have to tell you to believe before you will do it? Do you think He will do for you what He tells you to do?
Even after we are saved we must decide between believing God's word or not believing.
Revelation 2:7
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches
Matt.10:16-17
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
Not physical seeing and hearing? Then how is it the prophets righteous men of verse 17 didn't get to see or hear what the disciples did?
You really don't seem to understand how grace can enable you to respond without dictating what that response will be. Sad.
Maybe I already have and you are the one who needs to learn something new.
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
Not physical seeing and hearing? Then how is it the prophets righteous men of verse 17 didn't get to see or hear what the disciples did?
You really don't seem to understand how grace can enable you to respond without dictating what that response will be. Sad.
Maybe I already have and you are the one who needs to learn something new.
Matt.10:16-17
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
Not physical seeing and hearing? Then how is it the prophets righteous men of verse 17 didn't get to see or hear what the disciples did?
You really don't seem to understand how grace can enable you to respond without dictating what that response will be. Sad.
Maybe I already have and you are the one who needs to learn something new.
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
Not physical seeing and hearing? Then how is it the prophets righteous men of verse 17 didn't get to see or hear what the disciples did?
You really don't seem to understand how grace can enable you to respond without dictating what that response will be. Sad.
Maybe I already have and you are the one who needs to learn something new.
Wrong! Since he "imposes" his will over our "flesh", which just happens to be our wicked, sinful, depraved human nature that has nothing good in it, then he is controlling our volition because all moral creatures' wills are limited by the nature they have. Our nature defines who we are in our essence. And no man can make any good spiritual choices that run contrary to his nature. Even God Almighty himself cannot make choices contrary to his holy nature. There is a reason why scripture says that "God cannot lie" or "God cannot deny himself", i.e. deny his very essence! So, one one hand, God cannot sin due to his good, holy, righteous nature. On the other hand, mankind cannot not sin due to its totally depraved sin nature.
I've said this a few times on this thread, but so few people seem to get it: None of us would be having this merry-go-round discussion about Predestination if we all truly understood the power of sin and its monstrous, devastating effects upon the hearts of men, which is the seat of all our faculties. It is obvious to me that so many professing Christians underestimate the power of the former and/or overestimate the power of the latter. Jeremiah stated this problem well when he said:
Jer 17:9
9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?
NASB
That is a rhetorical question, by the way. Even people like myself who fully embrace the Five Doctrines of Grace of the Reformed Tradition cannot fully plumb the depths of sin's power. Yet, there are many here who obviously think it just takes an act of the human will to make everything okay between us and God. All we have to do is agree with God and cooperate with him, and we're home free.
I've said this a few times on this thread, but so few people seem to get it: None of us would be having this merry-go-round discussion about Predestination if we all truly understood the power of sin and its monstrous, devastating effects upon the hearts of men, which is the seat of all our faculties. It is obvious to me that so many professing Christians underestimate the power of the former and/or overestimate the power of the latter. Jeremiah stated this problem well when he said:
Jer 17:9
9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?
NASB
That is a rhetorical question, by the way. Even people like myself who fully embrace the Five Doctrines of Grace of the Reformed Tradition cannot fully plumb the depths of sin's power. Yet, there are many here who obviously think it just takes an act of the human will to make everything okay between us and God. All we have to do is agree with God and cooperate with him, and we're home free.
When faith is found in us? Its an indicator.
Then God imputes His righteousness.
He needs to impute and not "impart" His righteousness.
If He imparted His righteousness now none of us would ever sin again.
Why does he impute?
For we are not there yet experientially.
We will become the "perfectly manifested righteousness" once we find ourselves in our resurrection bodies.
In the mean while? ..
God sees in his omniscience what is to be, as good as it already being!
So? While we must wait for the Resurrection?
He merely imputes His righteousness to us in knowing what he does.
Imputed righteousness is God's stamp of having passed God's quality control test.
When it becomes imparted we will be removed from the shipping crate and set free for eternity.
God is so nice!