Is Speaking in Tongues still available today?
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There has always been division within the body of Christ. Much of the New Testament was written to correct error, to admonish and to separate the truth from the lies.
You know what else causes division? Faithless pastors who rob their congregation/have affairs with women and even men/some preach and yet will tell you they do not believe and others act as if they are God's gift, forgetting that He already gave us the best gift ever.
Speaking in any language can be used by fraudsters, false teachers/preachers and so on as I have already noted.
We certainly do have to be careful. Discernment is a dire need in the church/body of Christ today.
As for someone thinking they are not worthy to speak in tongues, what would you say to them if they told you that they did not think they were worthy of Christ? Would you tell them to work for salvation?
The spiritual gifts are not the problem. People are the problem.
You know what else causes division? Faithless pastors who rob their congregation/have affairs with women and even men/some preach and yet will tell you they do not believe and others act as if they are God's gift, forgetting that He already gave us the best gift ever.
Speaking in any language can be used by fraudsters, false teachers/preachers and so on as I have already noted.
We certainly do have to be careful. Discernment is a dire need in the church/body of Christ today.
As for someone thinking they are not worthy to speak in tongues, what would you say to them if they told you that they did not think they were worthy of Christ? Would you tell them to work for salvation?
The spiritual gifts are not the problem. People are the problem.
Maybe as soon as you show it's mangled gibberish that no one understands, including the person speaking it, and then tell me why this same practice is found in many different pagan practices. Where's the scripture that says the kundalini spirit gives the exact same gift?
I will be the first to admit that satan and his devices can mimic this wonderful gift, but those who operate in it that way bare no fruit.
1Cor. 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."
Speaking in Tongues is just simply unknown tongues to the recipient. I assure you TRUE Holy Ghost filled believers are speaking a language either known or lost language, but a language spoken on earth at one point, or could be angelic.
1 Corinthians 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."
Two main points of Speaking in Tongues to answer you statement (mangled gibberish that no one understands, including the person speaking it)
1. When in services praying between you and God.
Tongues unknown to the recipient, but known somewhere on earth now or in the past or angelic. I know of someone in their own prayer time, who was overheard by someone in the congregation who knew the language being spoken in Tongues and can testify they are the wonderful works of God. So not complete gibberish.
Act 2:8-11 "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9. Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10. Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11.Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."
2. When in services spoken aloud followed by interpretation.
Tongues unknown to everyone in the congregation hints the need for interpretation.
I won't lie I do not think that is what biblical tongues is at all. I also don't believe the way it's practiced today is very glorifying to Jesus. Not that it's bad or evil necessarily, just that it's kind of pointless and chaotic. I mean what's the point in the big picture? Honestly I feel it's more likely to turn someone away than to draw them into it.
With all the false ways and misuses of the Gift can very easily stir someone new to the faith, just look for those who practice it and if they bare no fruit of the Spirit than stay away. True biblical use of the Gift will always draw people to God.
1Cor. 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."
our personal prayer language between us and God Alone (When completely Unknow to anyone i.e. Angelic language) hints the word mysteries not even Satan know what is being said.
I think what a lot of people fail to realize is, that when interpretation is Given to Unknown tongues spoken, both are operating in Speaking in Tongues. God is doing the Speaking, you are the vessel, you have the choice to yield to the Spirit or not.
1 Corinthians Chapter 14
3."But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort."
4."He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."
Those who praise God to themselves in Speaking Unknown tongues edifies (lifts up their soul), but when done with congregation silent and interpreted the entire Body of Christ is Edified/lifted up.
5."I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."
Here Paul desires that everyone would be baptized with the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues. But desired them to seek the Interpretation. Because that would be the majority language of the congregation and edifies the entire Body of Christ.
6."Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?"
7."And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?"
8."For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"
9."So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air."
Those who try to be purposely heard in the congregation, speaking in tongues, are speaking into the air and foolishness if not interpreted. They are out of The Spirit's order and should keep silent to themselves.
10."There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification."
11."Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me."
There should never be confusion during a church service where everyone is Speaking in Tongues at the same time. The only exception is during a pray meeting, song service or altar call. Other than those times the Pastor should sit them down. We are in a battle for the souls of this world and sometimes get very expressive in our prayers, but we cant be silent, we are the Army of God against the forces of darkness.
12."Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church."
13."Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret."
It's great for your soul to be edified, but far great for the entire Body of Christ, than just yourself, so pray that you may interpret.
14."For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."
15."What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."
16."Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?"
When I pray in tongues my spirit is lifted, but I don't understand the words spoken, but at the same time I don't need to, I just know my soul is being edified.
17."For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified."
18."I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:"
19."Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue."
20."Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men."
21."In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord."
22."Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."
Speaking in Tongues signifies to the unbeliever the God is True. But Interpretation of Tongues Spoken is for the edification of those already saved.
23."If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"
Absolutely, if that is the way that Church is operating, I say yes.
24."But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:"
25."And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth."
In other words, if Tongues spoken are interpreted, they bring people to their knees in repentance from a convicted heart that has been exposed before God. Now understand that the interpretation is also Speaking in Tongues, what God wants the Congregation to hear.
26."How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."
27."If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret."
Anything else would be out of order of the Spirit and pointed out by the Pastor. And that by course means not all at once but one at a time. Anymore than three tongues spoken one is out of order.
28."But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."
I will be the first to admit that satan and his devices can mimic this wonderful gift, but those who operate in it that way bare no fruit.
1Cor. 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."
Speaking in Tongues is just simply unknown tongues to the recipient. I assure you TRUE Holy Ghost filled believers are speaking a language either known or lost language, but a language spoken on earth at one point, or could be angelic.
1 Corinthians 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."
Two main points of Speaking in Tongues to answer you statement (mangled gibberish that no one understands, including the person speaking it)
1. When in services praying between you and God.
Tongues unknown to the recipient, but known somewhere on earth now or in the past or angelic. I know of someone in their own prayer time, who was overheard by someone in the congregation who knew the language being spoken in Tongues and can testify they are the wonderful works of God. So not complete gibberish.
Act 2:8-11 "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9. Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10. Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11.Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."
2. When in services spoken aloud followed by interpretation.
Tongues unknown to everyone in the congregation hints the need for interpretation.
I won't lie I do not think that is what biblical tongues is at all. I also don't believe the way it's practiced today is very glorifying to Jesus. Not that it's bad or evil necessarily, just that it's kind of pointless and chaotic. I mean what's the point in the big picture? Honestly I feel it's more likely to turn someone away than to draw them into it.
With all the false ways and misuses of the Gift can very easily stir someone new to the faith, just look for those who practice it and if they bare no fruit of the Spirit than stay away. True biblical use of the Gift will always draw people to God.
1Cor. 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."
our personal prayer language between us and God Alone (When completely Unknow to anyone i.e. Angelic language) hints the word mysteries not even Satan know what is being said.
I think what a lot of people fail to realize is, that when interpretation is Given to Unknown tongues spoken, both are operating in Speaking in Tongues. God is doing the Speaking, you are the vessel, you have the choice to yield to the Spirit or not.
1 Corinthians Chapter 14
3."But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort."
4."He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."
Those who praise God to themselves in Speaking Unknown tongues edifies (lifts up their soul), but when done with congregation silent and interpreted the entire Body of Christ is Edified/lifted up.
5."I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."
Here Paul desires that everyone would be baptized with the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues. But desired them to seek the Interpretation. Because that would be the majority language of the congregation and edifies the entire Body of Christ.
6."Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?"
7."And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?"
8."For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"
9."So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air."
Those who try to be purposely heard in the congregation, speaking in tongues, are speaking into the air and foolishness if not interpreted. They are out of The Spirit's order and should keep silent to themselves.
10."There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification."
11."Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me."
There should never be confusion during a church service where everyone is Speaking in Tongues at the same time. The only exception is during a pray meeting, song service or altar call. Other than those times the Pastor should sit them down. We are in a battle for the souls of this world and sometimes get very expressive in our prayers, but we cant be silent, we are the Army of God against the forces of darkness.
12."Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church."
13."Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret."
It's great for your soul to be edified, but far great for the entire Body of Christ, than just yourself, so pray that you may interpret.
14."For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."
15."What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."
16."Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?"
When I pray in tongues my spirit is lifted, but I don't understand the words spoken, but at the same time I don't need to, I just know my soul is being edified.
17."For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified."
18."I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:"
19."Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue."
20."Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men."
21."In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord."
22."Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."
Speaking in Tongues signifies to the unbeliever the God is True. But Interpretation of Tongues Spoken is for the edification of those already saved.
23."If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"
Absolutely, if that is the way that Church is operating, I say yes.
24."But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:"
25."And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth."
In other words, if Tongues spoken are interpreted, they bring people to their knees in repentance from a convicted heart that has been exposed before God. Now understand that the interpretation is also Speaking in Tongues, what God wants the Congregation to hear.
26."How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."
27."If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret."
Anything else would be out of order of the Spirit and pointed out by the Pastor. And that by course means not all at once but one at a time. Anymore than three tongues spoken one is out of order.
28."But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."
I read it and know it very well. But what you don't understand, at least I think, tell me if I am wrong. Tongues Spoken on the Day of Pentecost was not communication for all those dialects and languages (countries of people) that were present that day. Tongues is a sign to the unbeliever that the wonderful works of God are being preached. There was no need for an interpreter on that day because every known language present was being spoken. They were just hearing them speak not making eye contact and conversing in conversation. Not all 120+ present in the Upper Room spoke all languages at once. One language at a time per person, meaning God can use one person to speak multiple languages.
Acts 2:8-11
8.And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9.Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10.Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11.Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Acts 2:8-11
8.And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9.Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10.Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11.Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
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Tongues were for a sign to the Jews. The Jews required signs to believe. For now, the Jews have been blinded to the gospel. Why tongues? Why signs?
1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
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I am sure that the Bible does not offer excuses for those who choose...yes you read me....CHOOSE...to either scoff or disavow certain passages in scripture that they do not personally agree with.
God is merciful. If you have a genuine heart and search for Him, you will find He is faithful and scripture holds the true record as do those who in faith desire to follow in faith. Honestly, there really is no other way. Have you seen God? He is visible in His creation and He is visible in all those who by faith follow Him. Of course you have not seen Him physically so by what means do you believe He hears and answers? Faith? Yes, and God rewards those who in faith come to Him and do not doubt. That is also in scripture but people are free to follow their 5 senses and trust in the world which compliments those same senses
I am beginning to understand...well for a while now actually...that this disbelief is not really about tongues or any other spiritual gift.
God is merciful. If you have a genuine heart and search for Him, you will find He is faithful and scripture holds the true record as do those who in faith desire to follow in faith. Honestly, there really is no other way. Have you seen God? He is visible in His creation and He is visible in all those who by faith follow Him. Of course you have not seen Him physically so by what means do you believe He hears and answers? Faith? Yes, and God rewards those who in faith come to Him and do not doubt. That is also in scripture but people are free to follow their 5 senses and trust in the world which compliments those same senses
I am beginning to understand...well for a while now actually...that this disbelief is not really about tongues or any other spiritual gift.
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You quoted "I sure wished I had the gift of tongues when I traveled to other countries. Would've been nice if they could just understand me in their own language without me having to attempt to speak in theirs. "
The statement sounded like you wanted to have a conversation with these people, speaking in tongues.
The statement sounded like you wanted to have a conversation with these people, speaking in tongues.
Sorry, by the Word of God I mean Jesus, not the Bible we hold in our hands. Jesus is the Bible robed in flesh. Untainted by the world, misinterpretations and useless translations. He is the Perfect Bible. Everything was revealed in and through HIM. Any truths of God revealed to someone isn't new revelation that wasn't already made available through HIM and HIS Word.
Where does the Bible teach this? On the day of Pentecost, some people accused the disciples who were speaking in tongues of being drunk. After Peter rose and preached, 3000 repented and were baptized. Paul quotes the Old Testament in connection to speaking in tongues, "... and yet for all that they will not hear me" and gives an example of an unbeliever or unlearned individual coming into the assembly and saying 'ye are mad.'
If that is true, then we would not need fellowship with one another, participating in holy communion, or prayer in a private or group setting to grow in the Lord, either.
Non sequitur.
I know Irenaeus mentioned speaking in tongues along with prophecy, foreknowledge, healing, raising the dead, around the early third century. Compiled quotes of speaking in tongues after that are sparse, here and there. Reference to it showed up in various movements throughout history. There are more references to the gift of prophecy, and also visions, dreams, etc.
I have read about speaking in tongues among the 'French prophets', a Calvinist group in Germany that was heavily persecuted in the 1700s, among Methodists and at least one person in the New Light Baptist movement in the early 1800s. There was some in the UK in the early part of the 1800's as well, and among various Christians groups in the US in the 1800's. Also in Russia and Armenia.
There is a lot of variety among Pentecostals and Charismatics. I spent a little while in a church where it seems like the doctrines and cliches preached from the pulpit seemed to come from other Charismatic preachers sermons moreso than the Bible. My wife and I stayed partly because of relationships, and partly because it always seemed like we'd have an opportunity to minister, which we had just a little bit of. I just couldn't take it anymore and moved on. But I've been to other churches, mainly Pentecostal, where they teach the Bible.
Paul actually commands... or said the Lord commanded... certain things in church. Churches are supposed to let prophets speak in church. I take allowing members of the congregation to sing psalms, teach, share tongues, revelations, and interpretations 'unto edifying' as a command. Also, the parts about the speaker in tongues and interpretation. The Bible says to let everything be done decently and in order, but that is in a context of telling us what the order is... which commands about speaking in tongues with interpretation, allowing prophecies, judging prophecies, the prophet holding his peace if another sitting by receives a revelation, etc. Some people focus on the part about women, which is interpreted differently depending on the commentator (chapter 11 mentions women prophesying). I take it refer further up in the passage. It says 'commandments of the Lord' not 'commandment of the Lord.
I also find that prophesying is edifying. A lot of the Pentecostal prophesying and interpretation of tongues i heard growing up sounded like scriptures strung together, focused on a certain theme. There are also prophecies that tell people the secrets of their heart. I've heard a Pentecostal-style prophecy-- one addressed out loud to the assembly, that told me what I was just thinking....something along the lines of 'you have said in your heart' or something like that, followed by an answer. Of course, I've had people prophesy stuff over me that they couldn't naturally know.
I got to the point that I didn't pay much attention when someone I didn't know had a 'word' for me about me being a teacher, which is an aspect of my vocation along with ministry gift. Then I realized it's actually pretty amazing thing.
It wasn't just miracles that drew people's attention to God in the New Testament. Christ's supernatural knowledge of the woman of the well helped her realize that He is a Prophet. Nathaniel confessed the Lord Jesus as the Son of God and the King of Israel (was he the first man to do so) after the Lord said that He was an Israelite indeed in whom there is no guile and that before Philip called him when he was under the fig tree, the Lord saw him. These types of things can fill people with a realization of the reality of God, and lead them to fall on their faces and say that God is truly among you. Prophesying also edifies the assembly, so does interpretation of tongues.
I was raised Pentecostal, and there was a belief that real Christians couldn't be possessed, and less frequent use of 'spirit'. The Charismatics are more likely to use 'spirit of this' and 'spirit of that.' So I am wondering if you mean that a spirit of pride is a scentient spiritual entity that can be cast out. It seems like it's about 50-50 with Charismatics who say that.
Unless you have scripture to show that some teaching of scripture has expired, it doesn't make sense to argue that it has expired. The burden of proof is on those who said the applicable-ness of such scriptures is no longer valid.
'False move of God' is harsh. I've had a little experience with congregations where the doctrine was a bit off. I think the WOF movement in the 1980's contributed quite a lot to that, both in actual doctrine and the emphasis on money and irrational interpretations of passages. I've also seen some stretching of what verses do mention tongues, and at least one that doesn't, to come up with some, IMO, odd doctrines about speaking in tongues and over-emphasizing it, probably more from WOFers and those influenced by them than any other group. I don't agree with the 'initial evidence doctrine' but there are a lot of Pentecostal pastors who teach the Bible in depth. There are also some Pentecostal preachers that seem like they might preach a bit of fluff or some light theological content really _llllooouddd__ and excited. There are some with good teaching who do it loud or that almost hyperventalating machine-gun style. Some of the Baptists preach like that, too in the South (in the US that is).
As far as love goes, it depends on the congregation and the people. There are people who open their homes, pour their lives into other people, give $20 handshakes. (That was the 'Pentecostal handshake' back when $20 was real money. I don't know if they've increased it to $100.) I've been treated with love by Pentecostals and Charismatics. It could be the congregation you were in or partly your perceptions. But to take that little sample size and conclude a false move of God isn't a very good methodology.
If that is true, then we would not need fellowship with one another, participating in holy communion, or prayer in a private or group setting to grow in the Lord, either.
Non sequitur.
I know Irenaeus mentioned speaking in tongues along with prophecy, foreknowledge, healing, raising the dead, around the early third century. Compiled quotes of speaking in tongues after that are sparse, here and there. Reference to it showed up in various movements throughout history. There are more references to the gift of prophecy, and also visions, dreams, etc.
I have read about speaking in tongues among the 'French prophets', a Calvinist group in Germany that was heavily persecuted in the 1700s, among Methodists and at least one person in the New Light Baptist movement in the early 1800s. There was some in the UK in the early part of the 1800's as well, and among various Christians groups in the US in the 1800's. Also in Russia and Armenia.
There is a lot of variety among Pentecostals and Charismatics. I spent a little while in a church where it seems like the doctrines and cliches preached from the pulpit seemed to come from other Charismatic preachers sermons moreso than the Bible. My wife and I stayed partly because of relationships, and partly because it always seemed like we'd have an opportunity to minister, which we had just a little bit of. I just couldn't take it anymore and moved on. But I've been to other churches, mainly Pentecostal, where they teach the Bible.
Paul actually commands... or said the Lord commanded... certain things in church. Churches are supposed to let prophets speak in church. I take allowing members of the congregation to sing psalms, teach, share tongues, revelations, and interpretations 'unto edifying' as a command. Also, the parts about the speaker in tongues and interpretation. The Bible says to let everything be done decently and in order, but that is in a context of telling us what the order is... which commands about speaking in tongues with interpretation, allowing prophecies, judging prophecies, the prophet holding his peace if another sitting by receives a revelation, etc. Some people focus on the part about women, which is interpreted differently depending on the commentator (chapter 11 mentions women prophesying). I take it refer further up in the passage. It says 'commandments of the Lord' not 'commandment of the Lord.
I also find that prophesying is edifying. A lot of the Pentecostal prophesying and interpretation of tongues i heard growing up sounded like scriptures strung together, focused on a certain theme. There are also prophecies that tell people the secrets of their heart. I've heard a Pentecostal-style prophecy-- one addressed out loud to the assembly, that told me what I was just thinking....something along the lines of 'you have said in your heart' or something like that, followed by an answer. Of course, I've had people prophesy stuff over me that they couldn't naturally know.
I got to the point that I didn't pay much attention when someone I didn't know had a 'word' for me about me being a teacher, which is an aspect of my vocation along with ministry gift. Then I realized it's actually pretty amazing thing.
It wasn't just miracles that drew people's attention to God in the New Testament. Christ's supernatural knowledge of the woman of the well helped her realize that He is a Prophet. Nathaniel confessed the Lord Jesus as the Son of God and the King of Israel (was he the first man to do so) after the Lord said that He was an Israelite indeed in whom there is no guile and that before Philip called him when he was under the fig tree, the Lord saw him. These types of things can fill people with a realization of the reality of God, and lead them to fall on their faces and say that God is truly among you. Prophesying also edifies the assembly, so does interpretation of tongues.
I was raised Pentecostal, and there was a belief that real Christians couldn't be possessed, and less frequent use of 'spirit'. The Charismatics are more likely to use 'spirit of this' and 'spirit of that.' So I am wondering if you mean that a spirit of pride is a scentient spiritual entity that can be cast out. It seems like it's about 50-50 with Charismatics who say that.
Unless you have scripture to show that some teaching of scripture has expired, it doesn't make sense to argue that it has expired. The burden of proof is on those who said the applicable-ness of such scriptures is no longer valid.
'False move of God' is harsh. I've had a little experience with congregations where the doctrine was a bit off. I think the WOF movement in the 1980's contributed quite a lot to that, both in actual doctrine and the emphasis on money and irrational interpretations of passages. I've also seen some stretching of what verses do mention tongues, and at least one that doesn't, to come up with some, IMO, odd doctrines about speaking in tongues and over-emphasizing it, probably more from WOFers and those influenced by them than any other group. I don't agree with the 'initial evidence doctrine' but there are a lot of Pentecostal pastors who teach the Bible in depth. There are also some Pentecostal preachers that seem like they might preach a bit of fluff or some light theological content really _llllooouddd__ and excited. There are some with good teaching who do it loud or that almost hyperventalating machine-gun style. Some of the Baptists preach like that, too in the South (in the US that is).
As far as love goes, it depends on the congregation and the people. There are people who open their homes, pour their lives into other people, give $20 handshakes. (That was the 'Pentecostal handshake' back when $20 was real money. I don't know if they've increased it to $100.) I've been treated with love by Pentecostals and Charismatics. It could be the congregation you were in or partly your perceptions. But to take that little sample size and conclude a false move of God isn't a very good methodology.
This was an argument from a forum on facebook. Something like this:
"Whalers used knives to cut up whale blubber. Whaling is illegal. Therefore, knives no longer exist. Anyone claiming to have a knife or use one is a heretic."
Pick one purpose for tongues, say it has ceased... that's similar reasoning to the quote above.
That doesn't hold up. Peter was preaching to Gentiles and they spoke in tongues. Consider he'd just gotten to the point where he could bring himself to go under a Gentile roof, it seems unlikely he was putting his hands all over them. Also, Ananias came so that Paul might be healed and that he might be filled with the Holy Ghost. Paul said they that seemed to be somewhat added nothing to him... speaking of his trip to Jerusalem where he met Peter, James, and John. Paul received the gift of apostleship and he indicated the apostles added nothing to him. He spoke in tongues and he laid hands on others and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
One of the gifts Timothy received, he received through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders. And prophets and teachers laid hands on Barnabas and Saul.
Also, when Simon of Samaria asked Peter for the power to lay hands on people that they might receive the Holy Ghost, Peter didn't say 'No because you aren't an apostle.' He told him he had no part with this matter because his heart wasn't right before God.
This doesn't prove your point. I Corinthians 12 lists prophecy, gifts of healing, tongues and interpretation, and the working of miracles among gifts given to members of the body of Christ for the common good. So the common good of the church is part of the purpose of these gifts. The church still exists. Prophecy and interpreting tongues edify the congregation. Again, the church still exists.
The scripture you quotes is fine. The exegesis/eisegesis contradicts other Biblical teachings. Trying to squeeze something out of a passage that it doesn't say is a problem.
You left off the rest of the story where Simon had no part in this matter because his heart was not right before God.
Yes the verse does make sense. It seems like you are reading the word 'exclusively' into the verse where it does not exist. This verse shows that a spiritual gift could be given through the laying on of an apostles hands. But other scripture indicates that this was not necessary.
In I Corinthians 14:13 Paul tells the one to speak in tongues to pray that he may interpret. Interpretation of tongues is a gift mentioned in I Corinthians 12.
So are you saying that since Paul did not have the whole Bible back then, that his understanding was like that of a child's, but you, since you have the whole Bible, have adult understanding?
For one thing, that doesn't make sense. You are reading child-like understanding and thereby becoming an adult, according to such an interpretation. There is a problem with that.
But another problem is if you read Paul's letters, then come back months or years later, read them again, and see some truth that Paul clearly understood that you didn't when you first read it, even though you'd read the whole Bible... that experience disproves this interpretation.
There is also the fact that your interpretation does not jibe with the overall message of the letter. In chapter 1 verse 7, Paul says 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.'
Chapter 13 here mentions
1. tongues, 2. prophecy, and 3. the coming of the perfect.
The next two chapters mention
1. tongues, 2. prophecy, and 3. the state of the believer in the resurrection.
Thematically, it makes a lot more sense to take Paul's comments to refer to the state of things at the resurrection of the dead.
The idea that speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc. would cease in the first century is not taught in the Bible and is not part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints.'
You don't have to have a copy of the Bible to be a Christian, but it sure is useful.
And then they waited to be empowered as He told them, and they spoke in tongues and did miracles. That verse doesn't support cessationism.
There is one occasion where some of the apostles could not do a sign/miracle because of their unbelief. When Peter walked on water, he doubted and then he sank.
Maybe you could get some more varied church experience if that is the case.
"Whalers used knives to cut up whale blubber. Whaling is illegal. Therefore, knives no longer exist. Anyone claiming to have a knife or use one is a heretic."
Pick one purpose for tongues, say it has ceased... that's similar reasoning to the quote above.
That doesn't hold up. Peter was preaching to Gentiles and they spoke in tongues. Consider he'd just gotten to the point where he could bring himself to go under a Gentile roof, it seems unlikely he was putting his hands all over them. Also, Ananias came so that Paul might be healed and that he might be filled with the Holy Ghost. Paul said they that seemed to be somewhat added nothing to him... speaking of his trip to Jerusalem where he met Peter, James, and John. Paul received the gift of apostleship and he indicated the apostles added nothing to him. He spoke in tongues and he laid hands on others and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
One of the gifts Timothy received, he received through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders. And prophets and teachers laid hands on Barnabas and Saul.
Also, when Simon of Samaria asked Peter for the power to lay hands on people that they might receive the Holy Ghost, Peter didn't say 'No because you aren't an apostle.' He told him he had no part with this matter because his heart wasn't right before God.
This doesn't prove your point. I Corinthians 12 lists prophecy, gifts of healing, tongues and interpretation, and the working of miracles among gifts given to members of the body of Christ for the common good. So the common good of the church is part of the purpose of these gifts. The church still exists. Prophecy and interpreting tongues edify the congregation. Again, the church still exists.
The scripture you quotes is fine. The exegesis/eisegesis contradicts other Biblical teachings. Trying to squeeze something out of a passage that it doesn't say is a problem.
You left off the rest of the story where Simon had no part in this matter because his heart was not right before God.
Yes the verse does make sense. It seems like you are reading the word 'exclusively' into the verse where it does not exist. This verse shows that a spiritual gift could be given through the laying on of an apostles hands. But other scripture indicates that this was not necessary.
In I Corinthians 14:13 Paul tells the one to speak in tongues to pray that he may interpret. Interpretation of tongues is a gift mentioned in I Corinthians 12.
So are you saying that since Paul did not have the whole Bible back then, that his understanding was like that of a child's, but you, since you have the whole Bible, have adult understanding?
For one thing, that doesn't make sense. You are reading child-like understanding and thereby becoming an adult, according to such an interpretation. There is a problem with that.
But another problem is if you read Paul's letters, then come back months or years later, read them again, and see some truth that Paul clearly understood that you didn't when you first read it, even though you'd read the whole Bible... that experience disproves this interpretation.
There is also the fact that your interpretation does not jibe with the overall message of the letter. In chapter 1 verse 7, Paul says 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.'
Chapter 13 here mentions
1. tongues, 2. prophecy, and 3. the coming of the perfect.
The next two chapters mention
1. tongues, 2. prophecy, and 3. the state of the believer in the resurrection.
Thematically, it makes a lot more sense to take Paul's comments to refer to the state of things at the resurrection of the dead.
The idea that speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc. would cease in the first century is not taught in the Bible and is not part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints.'
You don't have to have a copy of the Bible to be a Christian, but it sure is useful.
And then they waited to be empowered as He told them, and they spoke in tongues and did miracles. That verse doesn't support cessationism.
There is one occasion where some of the apostles could not do a sign/miracle because of their unbelief. When Peter walked on water, he doubted and then he sank.
Maybe you could get some more varied church experience if that is the case.
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I'm not exactly sure if this is what you mean, but do you mean you don't know anyone who has seen interpretation of tongues? I have, many many times. Probably nearly every week in church for years when I was a teenager. It still happens at some churches.
If you read the writings of the early Pentecostal movement, there were many testimonies of people either hearing languages they knew 'in tongues' or the languages being identified by others. I have met people who have experienced this and others I have met through the online environment who experienced this, and I know of a couple of books of contemporary accounts of such things.
I've had conversations with people who got the interpretation of tongues, then someone else got the same thing and interpreted it before they did. One friend of mine, who had never spoken in tongues himself, experienced that where someone else 'beat him to the punch.' I asked if it was word for word the same. He said it was the same 'gist.' The dialect and other components may vary depending on who is giving it, apparently. Some people may only get the first word or phrase, or get the sense of the message and the actual words flow out. But I may be confusing descriptions of it with prophesying, also.
With prophesying, I've gone to one town and someone prophesied something over me, and went to another and someone else prophesied the same thing, or at least an important part of the prophecy. One pastor I knew had this happen with a 'bill of goods' metaphor being used in two prophecies in two places. I've also gotten some knowledge about someone and wanted to share it with him (his being gifted as evangelist) and then immediately someone prophesied it. I've experienced that a couple of times. I don't really minister in giving a prophecy per se unless some prayers are prophetic. I've prayed for people and prayed for stuff I wouldn't naturally have known about. I'm not exactly sure what gift category that falls into. Maybe word of knowledge or it could be prophecy without me realizing it.
If you read the writings of the early Pentecostal movement, there were many testimonies of people either hearing languages they knew 'in tongues' or the languages being identified by others. I have met people who have experienced this and others I have met through the online environment who experienced this, and I know of a couple of books of contemporary accounts of such things.
I've had conversations with people who got the interpretation of tongues, then someone else got the same thing and interpreted it before they did. One friend of mine, who had never spoken in tongues himself, experienced that where someone else 'beat him to the punch.' I asked if it was word for word the same. He said it was the same 'gist.' The dialect and other components may vary depending on who is giving it, apparently. Some people may only get the first word or phrase, or get the sense of the message and the actual words flow out. But I may be confusing descriptions of it with prophesying, also.
With prophesying, I've gone to one town and someone prophesied something over me, and went to another and someone else prophesied the same thing, or at least an important part of the prophecy. One pastor I knew had this happen with a 'bill of goods' metaphor being used in two prophecies in two places. I've also gotten some knowledge about someone and wanted to share it with him (his being gifted as evangelist) and then immediately someone prophesied it. I've experienced that a couple of times. I don't really minister in giving a prophecy per se unless some prayers are prophetic. I've prayed for people and prayed for stuff I wouldn't naturally have known about. I'm not exactly sure what gift category that falls into. Maybe word of knowledge or it could be prophecy without me realizing it.
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