Predestination is misunderstood...

[FollowerofShiloh]

For something to be willed there is included in the willing the intention to bring a desire into reality. To will apart from intention is simply to desire.

James speaks of a past tense as in it will happen like it already did happen, as it's a done deal. James speaks of a goal connected to boasting that is believed can be achieved and would be achieved. And then it takes work and effort to make it happen.

"Free Will" deals with choices that are at hand. God tells you to do something, your boss tells you to do something, your spouse tells you to do something. It's your choice to do it or not. You see a dime on someone's coffee table and you are choosing to leave it or take it. You get a job offer and you choose to accept or deny it.

Like I said before your doctrine doesn't allow you to see the difference.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I see you’re still avoiding the truth of Scripture on this matter and whining about supposed offences instead.

I am very disturbed when it comes to those who demand consistently,

When I pray i request, because I pray for God's will, to be done in my life,

I also ask him how I can help him today and can he show me how to help him.

I say this prayer. because I want to be joined with people whom he loves.

You presume I lack faith because I'm not doing as you command,

You commanded I should give you an answer to your question on whether a disabled person can be a troll.

Well you don't command that of me

Your obviously missing something in your prayer life to command such a thing.

And.i won't listen to your crap either. About what's not working with me.

When clearly you have a huge ego issue of.yoir own.

 

[Cameron143]

But I (If I am a non child of God) can of that same will call out to Jesus for salvation..

I am not hindered from pleading for salvation

Hypothetically yes. But there are none seeking after God...no, not one...Romans 3.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Hypothetically yes. But there are none seeking after God...no, not one...Romans 3.

Your right,

But God seeks after the world. and he can change them,, He did that to me.. It took over a year. but he kept coming.

Saying a person can not of their own free will call out for salvation is to deny the love, righteousness and holiness of God.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Hypothetically yes. But there are none seeking after God...no, not one...Romans 3.

Paul also "spoke/Luke wrote" in Acts, 27 ""to seek God,"" if perhaps they would feel and find him not far from each one of us.

Better version, 27 "So that they would be seeking and inquiring* after God; and they may find him by his creation, because also he is not far from everyone of us."

 

[Cameron143]

James speaks of a past tense as in it will happen like it already did happen, as it's a done deal. James speaks of a goal connected to boasting that is believed can be achieved and would be achieved. And then it takes work and effort to make it happen.

"Free Will" deals with choices that are at hand. God tells you to do something, your boss tells you to do something, your spouse tells you to do something. It's your choice to do it or not. You see a dime on someone's coffee table and you are choosing to leave it or take it. You get a job offer and you choose to accept or deny it.

Like I said before your doctrine doesn't allow you to see the difference.

My doctrine? I have no doctrine. You may think my understanding of biblical doctrine is poor, but it's not my doctrine.
And I never said we can't make choices. I said we can't make every choice come to pass. And we have freedom to exercise our wills in all those cases. That doesn't mean it applies in every situation. Who by force of will can save themselves? No one. There exist things that our best efforts cannot bring to pass. Our desires may be unlimited, but our ability to accomplish them is not.

 

[Cameron143]

Your right,

But God seeks after the world. and he can change them,, He did that to me.. It took over a year. but he kept coming.

Saying a person can not of their own free will call out for salvation is to deny the love, righteousness and holiness of God.

I agree God seeks after people, and He can incredibly change them. And I'm overjoyed that He has done so for you. And I didn't say a person cannot cry out to God. I'm saying none are seeking and won't cry out until God seeks them out first.

 

[Dino246]

I am very disturbed when it comes to those who demand consistently,

When I pray i request, because I pray for God's will, to be done in my life,

I also ask him how I can help him today and can he show me how to help him.

I say this prayer. because I want to be joined with people whom he loves.

You presume I lack faith because I'm not doing as you command,

You commanded I should give you an answer to your question on whether a disabled person can be a troll.

Well you don't command that of me

Your obviously missing something in your prayer life to command such a thing.

And.i won't listen to your crap either. About what's not working with me.

When clearly you have a huge ego issue of.yoir own.

Since I didn’t ask you any question about disabled people, you’re off base… so far that you’re over in the next county. Maybe check who says what before replying.

 

[sawdust]

Hypothetically yes. But there are none seeking after God...no, not one...Romans 3.

This only holds true within the context which is when charged under sin apart from God's grace.

I sought God for half my life before I was saved and I sought Him because I don't remember a time when His presence was not clearly before me. Grace changes everything by manifesting the truth so that one may accept or reject. No-one wakes up one morning and believes in Christ. Coming to Christ (salvation) is a process of believing the truth as being true and grace leads the way beginning with God exists, a position the unrepentant unbeliever rejects as true by suppressing it. (Rom.1:18)

As best I can tell, you either have an exceptionally low opinion of humanity that God must rip out their soul and replace it with a new one in order for someone to like Him or you have a low opinion of God's power (grace) that He is not able to control all the influences that would keep us from Him so we can decide for ourselves whether we like Him or not.

You may well have done your own thinking but you have ended up in the same place as the Calvinists for they use all the same passages as you do to try and justify regeneration before one can believe the truth.

If one has to be regenerated in order to accept the truth, then they must also be regenerated in order to reject the truth. You cannot reject the unknown. Needless to say, the unbeliever is not regenerated.

 

[Cameron143]

Paul also "spoke/Luke wrote" in Acts, 27 ""to seek God,"" if perhaps they would feel and find him not far from each one of us.

Better version, 27 "So that they would be seeking and inquiring* after God; and they may find him by his creation, because also he is not far from everyone of us."

Sure. Preachers are tasked to share the word of God and to seek God and call upon His name. That's how salvation takes place. But it doesn't change the natural estate of man and no one will do either unless God seeks them out first.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I am very disturbed when it comes to those who demand consistently,

You mean "consistency"? Why is consistency disturbing. The Bible calls for consistency.

 

[Rufus]

Same applies as for Paul's other need for grace.

While unregenerate? Our flesh has a tyrannical control over our souls.
Thus crippling our soul's ability to choose for, or even against, believing in Christ.
Without grace? By default, we all would automatically reject the salvation message.

Grace in salvation over powers our flesh and pushes it down. Silencing it.
Thus enabling our soul for a needed moment of freedom from the slave master of the flesh to make a choice set before us by God.

If grace were not applied by God during the times of deciding for salvation?
No person could possibly be free to believe with their soul.

Grace when given reverses the helplessness of our condition of our fallen state to choose and do God's will.
But, that grace only frees our soul to make a right choice, not guarantee it.
That is why God is now free to judge us... because, it is our own choice!

grace and peace ................

You were doing well until the bolded part. BUT that grace does not guarantee our salvation? I guess we can't call that kind of grace saving grace, can we? But I ask: Who can thwart God's purposes?

”I know [Lord] that You can do all things; no plan of Yours can be thwarted.” (Job 42:2)

~”The Lord foils the plans of the nations [the wicked]; He thwarts the purposes of the [wicked] peoples. But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of His heart through all generations.” (Ps. 33:10,11)

~”O Lord, God of our fathers, are You not the God who is in Heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. Power and might are in Your hand, and no one can withstand You.” (2 Chron. 20:6)

~”Many are the plans in a man’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.” (Prov. 19:21)

~”The Lord works out everything for His own ends –even the wicked for a day of disaster.” (Prov. 16:4)

~”There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the Lord.” (Prov. 21:30)

God's will is not contingent on ours. He works out all things according to the counsel of his will. And he has mercy and compassion on who he wants to have such, for such things on not dependent on our will.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But it doesn't change the natural estate of man and no one will do either unless God seeks them out first.

As if God does not seek out everyone. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. (Isa 49:6) The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. (Isa 52:10) Christ said He came into the world so that THE WORLD might be saved (John 3:17). So that already settled this question.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Since I didn’t ask you any question about disabled people, you’re off base… so far that you’re over in the next county. Maybe check who says what before replying.

Your obviously highly disabled in one regard, as I don't see the spirit guiding you, I see your pride.

 

[Johann]

As if God does not seek out everyone. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. (Isa 49:6) The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. (Isa 52:10) Christ said He came into the world so that THE WORLD might be saved (John 3:17). So that already settled this question.

As if God does not seek out everyone. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. (Isa 49:6) The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. (Isa 52:10) Christ said He came into the world so that THE WORLD might be saved (John 3:17). So that already settled this question.

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them."

Ephesians 2:1-5: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us,..."

Jeremiah 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

 

[Cameron143]

This only holds true within the context which is when charged under sin apart from God's grace.

I sought God for half my life before I was saved and I sought Him because I don't remember a time when His presence was not clearly before me. Grace changes everything by manifesting the truth so that one may accept or reject. No-one wakes up one morning and believes in Christ. Coming to Christ (salvation) is a process of believing the truth as being true and grace leads the way beginning with God exists, a position the unrepentant unbeliever rejects as true by suppressing it. (Rom.1:18)

As best I can tell, you either have an exceptionally low opinion of humanity that God must rip out their soul and replace it with a new one in order for someone to like Him or you have a low opinion of God's power (grace) that He is not able to control all the influences that would keep us from Him so we can decide for ourselves whether we like Him or not.

You may well have done your own thinking but you have ended up in the same place as the Calvinists for they use all the same passages as you do to try and justify regeneration before one can believe the truth.

If one has to be regenerated in order to accept the truth, then they must also be regenerated in order to reject the truth. You cannot reject the unknown. Needless to say, the unbeliever is not regenerated.

I have the lowest opinion of the estate of fallen man. I don't see how anyone can read Romans 3:10 and following and come to any other conclusion. But I have the highest regard for the souls of all mankind. Man is intrinsically valuable because he bears the image of God.
I disagree that regeneration is necessary to reject God. This is the default setting of the natural man. He is already disposed to be contrary to God.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

You mean "consistency"? Why is consistency disturbing. The Bible calls for consistency.

This is another member who has consistently tried to arouse offense in me
Yes you and your friends consistency is obvious, the word is consistently.

Consistently by definition
in every case or on every occasion;
"the vehicle consistently outperforms some of the best competitors"


So go on, shout ignore evade.

 

[Cameron143]

As if God does not seek out everyone. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. (Isa 49:6) The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. (Isa 52:10) Christ said He came into the world so that THE WORLD might be saved (John 3:17). So that already settled this question.

God doesn't seek after everyone. Jesus Himself only came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Plenty of people from the cross since have never heard the gospel. And merely having the gospel preached isn't indicative of God seeking after everyone. What you've stated isn't true.

 

[Nehemiah6]

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them."

As if the Father does not draw all men to Christ. He sent Christ into the world to draw all men to Christ, and you think that was contradicted by Him immediately? Christ is one with the Father, and He said that when He is lifted up He will draw ALL MEN to Himself. And so does the Holy Spirit.

The context of the verse you have quoted is the unbelief of Christ's enemies. Of course the Father would not draw them since they rejected His Son.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God doesn't seek after everyone. Jesus Himself only came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

This is PURE NONSENSE. See this: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10:16)