Predestination is misunderstood...

[Everlasting-Grace]

I had a similar experience as you, and I believe elements of all these things are common to salvation. But I don't agree that you were still spiritually dead. The very fact that you were noticing these things and responding to them is the evidence that you were alive spiritually. Otherwise, you would not have responded.

How could I be made alive while I was still dead in my tresspasses and sin? Are you saying I was spiritually alive for 2 years before I had faith?

The point about faith I was making was concerning the distinction between a natural faith or ability to believe and a supernatural faith that is produced in us when we are saved. One is exercised by us and made possible by virtue of our natural birth. The other is produced in us and enabled by spiritual birth.

I trusted God because he proved himself trustworthy.

Not because I was made alive and given a special condition to meke me better than my neighbor.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You called water baptism blasphemy.

And rather than correct it, your fighting it.

So go on, shout, accuse then ignore

Here is your problem my friend

I called water baptism a command of God. and even claimed I did it.. and suggest everyone should do it

and you claim I call it blasphemy,

Your a liar.

keep it up dude.. Your just hurting your own testimony..

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Well it still does not mean his Grace is unmerited,

He gives his gifts to those who are drawn to the son from the father.

if you don't get drawn, there ain't no gift.

You can ask for his gift untill you blue in the face.

The father will decide when or if your going to get it.

The gift of faith is a free Gift, but the gift of salvation comes only after you have been refined.. and only after you have been baptised.

Don't believe and be condemned.


So it's Say here believe and be baptised. To be saved. (Two things)


Which means you believe first, which is his gift of faith, a free gift.

Then you receive salvation after your baptised.


Then the bible says in the next verse don't believe and you will be condemned.


So believing on its own is saved by faith not saved By salvation.
The free gift you are saved by is faith.


Because it says You must be baptised after you believe.

So if your baptised before you die, you receive salvation before you die.


However you may receive salvation after you die. But it could be you will be dead longer than you have to be, before you receive it.

This is the whole truth and nothing but the truth @Everlasting-Grace

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Here is your problem my friend

I called water baptism a command of God. and even claimed I did it.. and suggest everyone should do it

and you claim I call it blasphemy,

Your a liar.

keep it up dude.. Your just hurting your own testimony..

No, I called the belief we must be baptized in water to be saved blasphemy.

If this is not calling water baptism blasphemy, I really can't help you.

I must not be here if anyone thinks this is not calling water baptism blasphemy.

i must be dreaming and seeing an illusion.

 

[Cameron143]

How could I be made alive while I was still dead in my tresspasses and sin? Are you saying I was spiritually alive for 2 years before I had faith?


I trusted God because he proved himself trustworthy.

Not because I was made alive and given a special condition to meke me better than my neighbor.

You missed the understanding of what I shared and that's OK. But having your understanding based on your perceptions of your experience very often leads to error.
Your last statement bears this out. You already admitted that faith is produced in the grace that brings salvation, but still insist you believed as a result of your trust.

 

[Sipsey]

If this is not calling water baptism blasphemy, I really can't help you.

I must not be here if anyone thinks this not calling water baptism blasphemy.

i must be dreaming and seeing an illusion.

I think if you read his statement real slow, you will see that they were calling a belief about or towards baptism, blasphemy, not baptism itself.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I think if you read his statement real slow, you will see that they were calling a belief about ot towards baptism, blasphemy, not baptism itself.

you have to be baptised to be saved, the word clearly says believe, be baptised, and be saved.

You cant say it's blasphemy to say you have to be baptised to be saved.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This is the whole truth and nothing but the truth @Everlasting-Grace

I understand you thinking this

Since you obviously believe water baptism is required for salvation.

You think Gods grace is merited.. sp I understand you denying it is unmerited.

 

[Dino246]

Has anyone ever gave this Much thought

Galatians 5:22-23

New International Version

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Each fruit is a seed,

You are first saved By a seed called love.

Leading to the final seed called self control, where by then you receive salvation.

That is completely backwards.

The Holy Spirit begins exhibiting fruit in a person AFTER the person is saved. The fruit is NOT sequentially manifested.

Fruit is not seed; fruit (literal fruit) contains seed.

smh…

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I'm expecting another attempt of another aggravation, really soon

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If this is not calling water baptism blasphemy, I really can't help you.

I must not be here if anyone thinks this is not calling water baptism blasphemy.

i must be dreaming and seeing an illusion.

so me telling everyone they should be water baptized in blasphemy

In what world is this true?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You missed the understanding of what I shared and that's OK. But having your understanding based on your perceptions of your experience very often leads to error.
Your last statement bears this out. You already admitted that faith is produced in the grace that brings salvation, but still insist you believed as a result of your trust.

But my trust was not conjured up on my own, or my own power.

This is what I think you do not understand about what I am saying

If I trust someone to save me, because they have earned my trust. Then I am not earning or meriting my salvation..

Again, You have me made alive while still under the penalty of sin,.

that goes against Gods justice, and his holiness.. And is counter to his love.. (because his love can not overrule his justice or holiness)

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

That is completely backwards.

The Holy Spirit begins exhibiting fruit in a person AFTER the person is saved. The fruit is NOT sequentially manifested.

Fruit is not seed; fruit (literal fruit) contains seed.

smh…

oh here it is, Well thanks for your opinion.

The fruits of the spirit are seeds.

Because Jesus said if you have faith the size of a mustard seed.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

you have to be baptised to be saved, the word clearly says believe, be baptised, and be saved.

You cant say it's blasphemy to say you have to be baptised to be saved.

If you claim water baptism is required. Yes I can call it blasphmeny and it is

I believed, was baptized (by God) and through this spiritual baptism, I was saved. God did all the work. I can not take any credit because i did nothing..

But you evidently want to merit salvation. thats ok.. The jews wanted to do that also. only they used circumcision as their crutch

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

so me telling everyone they should be water baptized in blasphemy

In what world is this true?

you said anyone who says they must be baptised to be saved is commiting blasphemy,

I'm not backwards this is what you said.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

you said anyone who says they must be baptised to be saved is commiting blasphemy,

That is true, and I stand by it

But I never said baptism was blasphemy, those are your words. not mine

I'm not backwards this is what you said.

No, but that is not what you accusing me of. You accused me of saying baptism is blasphemy,

Now again your trying to run from the truth of what you said, and blame shift..

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

If you claim water baptism is required. Yes I can call it blasphmeny and it is

I believed, was baptized (by God) and through this spiritual baptism, I was saved. God did all the work. I can not take any credit because i did nothing..

But you evidently want to merit salvation. thats ok.. The jews wanted to do that also. only they used circumcision as their crutch

No Gods merits salvation not me.

He even merits it when his Sword penetrates your soul, ( circumcision of the heart).

All you have to is repent of your sin for calling water baptism blasphemy.

May God have mercy on you.

May you also learn the correct Gospel.

 

[Cameron143]

But my trust was not conjured up on my own, or my own power.

This is what I think you do not understand about what I am saying

If I trust someone to save me, because they have earned my trust. Then I am not earning or meriting my salvation..

Again, You have me made alive while still under the penalty of sin,.

that goes against Gods justice, and his holiness.. And is counter to his love.. (because his love can not overrule his justice or holiness)

It's still you producing the trust to believe God is faithful based on your observations. The source of the trust is natural, not supernatural.
I do understand your argument. I believe it is inconsistent with scripture.
But I have enjoyed the discussion. Thanks.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It's still you producing the trust to believe God is faithful based on your observations.

No its not. it is God producing in me the trust that he is faithful.

The source of the trust is natural, not supernatural.

Again, you are in error

I do understand your argument. I believe it is inconsistent with scripture.
But I have enjoyed the discussion. Thanks.

No you do not. And sorry, But it is complete agreement with scripture.

why are you so afraid to trust God? Is he not trustworthy, I am not trying to be rude. that it makes no sense that you can not see the work someone did, and not trust in that person without him first doing something to you.

Thats the cart before the horse.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink,

This means the horse already trusts you

Same as I already trust God's word and Cameron.